Why Billionaires Believe Work-Life Balance Is A Myth

Harley Finkelstein (00:00):
So this next one, this next Big Shot Short, our compilation series, is about work-life balance, which frankly is not something that you and I should be teaching, preaching, or even talking about to anyone, because I don't even think you and I have-

David Segal (00:14):
I think you have the best term.

Harley Finkelstein (00:14):
We're not that good at it.

David Segal (00:16):
You're like, "I don't go for work-life balance. You go for work-life harmony."

Harley Finkelstein (00:18):
Well, I just think the idea... By the way, I saw that from Bezos, I think. But the idea of harmony to me is better than balance because work-life balance insinuates that you have work here and life here, and they don't necessarily intertwine. [00:00:30] But as you know, the best entrepreneurs that we know-

David Segal (00:32):
[inaudible 00:00:33].

Harley Finkelstein (00:33):
... Including ourselves, it's always intertwined, right? A Monday morning or a Saturday morning, I may be taking calls, or I may be with my kids. It's all mixed up into one big harmonious bag if you're lucky. One of the things that gave me some comfort was the fact that as we met these guests and we talked about family life and work life, they all believe it's incredibly important, like it's to us. But the truth is, the best entrepreneurs, the people that you and I admire the most, they don't [00:01:00] look at it like they're separate things. They're all intertwined. And they're all mixed together in this beautiful, harmonious backpack. And I think once you begin to look at it like this harmony as opposed to two distinct things, I think it makes both even better.

David Segal (01:14):
50/50 is not what you're aiming for. It's not necessarily the quantity. It's more the quality. You can have a 80/20 split or a 90/10 split. It's less about that, what we learned from these guests, and it's more about, how do you participate with [00:01:30] your family? How consistent is it? How do you bring yourself into the present moment? And they give us a lot of great tips on that.

Harley Finkelstein (01:36):
Yeah. Well, that's right. One of the things you do see is you see Charles Bronfman always had lunch with his family on Sundays. And Eddie Sonshine would never miss a Shabbos dinner. And Rosalie and Issy Sharp play cards together-

David Segal (01:48):
Travel together.

Harley Finkelstein (01:49):
... And travel together every single month. I mean, those rituals, those routines, that's how you create permanence of both family and work. And you do it in a way [00:02:00] that feels harmonious. But it's something that I think almost every successful entrepreneur I know struggles with because there is a desire and ambition to build great companies and great businesses, but there's also sometimes a guilt about missing out on ballet recitals and Shabbos dinners and family vacations. And I think anyone watching, this will resonate with you because all of us struggle with this issue.

David Segal (02:23):
We all struggle with it. But I think what was interesting, listening to them talk about it in hindsight, decades after it has happened, [00:02:30] they talk about some of the regrets. But they also, each one of them, I mean, I think it's Eddie who's like, "We didn't have work-life balance. The term didn't exist." And yet, they all came up with their own version of it. They made their [inaudible 00:02:44] with their spouses, with their kids, on what they would be there for consistently, and what they weren't. But I think the key word there is consistency. They all had a consistent routine, and they stuck to it.

Harley Finkelstein (02:54):
That's right.

David Segal (02:55):
And it became very, very important. And certain things and activities became sacred. And we're going to learn which of those activities [00:03:00] were and how that came about and why it was so important in not just helping them create these amazing businesses, but how they built these amazing families too.

Harley Finkelstein (03:09):
And all of those customs and those routines that they got themselves into. And I think the reason that this particular topic of work-life balance resonates so much with us, it's because that's probably one of the things you and I struggle with most.

David Segal (03:21):
So your kids are a bit younger than mine, but my daughter's now 13. And actually, after listening to all of these different big shots tell us about what they did to create [00:03:30] this, I decided to... Every second Wednesday, I now spend with my 13-year-old daughter doing something, whether it's going bowling, whether it's going out for dinner, whether it's going for a run together, I don't know. Whatever she wants to do or whatever different activities-

Harley Finkelstein (03:43):
But prioritizing that and making it a ritual.

David Segal (03:44):
Of course. It's a routine. It's now a routine.

Harley Finkelstein (03:46):
I love that. So let's hear from people that are much smarter than David and I are talk about this concept that frankly is elusive and very challenging for all of us.

(03:59):
Now you're [00:04:00] going to hear from Issy Sharp, the founder of the Four Seasons, and he talks about the most important relationship in your life is that of your spouse.

(04:08):
Issy, I want to ask you something on the personal side. David and I have been entrepreneurs like you for most of our lives. I started my first DJ company when I was 13 years old because I wanted to be a DJ for Bar Mitzvahs. Nobody would hire [00:04:30] me, and so I hired myself. Entrepreneurship is something that is not only a passion for us, but also how we've built our lives and our livelihoods and support our families. One thing that we struggle with sometimes, we both have incredible partners in our life, women in our lives, our wives. Emily, for David, and Lindsey, for me. Often we struggle with the balance, if you can even say that. It's more like we don't really believe in work-life balance. It's more like work-life harmony for us. We try to combine all these things.

(05:00):
[00:05:00] But one of the things in preparation for this interview that David and I kept stopping and having these sidebar conversations about is your relationship with Rosalie. And what we'd love to learn from you is, how do you balance being a great entrepreneur, a great leader, with also being a great father and a great husband? I'm not sure... I mean, we try our best. We are doing whatever we can.

Issy Sharp (05:23):
It's a constant adjustment though.

Harley Finkelstein (05:24):
It is. And we sometimes feel guilty about not being there all the time. David has three kids. I have two kids. [00:05:30] Can you talk a little bit about how you've designed that in your life? Because there's something so profound. You read it in the pages of Rosalie's book, but any research anyone does on Issy Sharp, your wife comes up. And again, you talk about that there's no self-made man or self-made person. I'd love to know from you what we can learn from that because there's something so special about what you and your wife have.

Issy Sharp (05:56):
Well, you're right. I think the relationship that you have, [00:06:00] that's the most important support you will ever get, is from the partner you have chosen to live with, regardless of who that is. And your family. There's nothing more important to everybody. It's just innate. You cannot ever, ever give up the love and devotion you have for your children. I've often said the only true love that exists is the love a parent has for their child. [00:06:30] And it doesn't go the other way. It's involuntary. You cannot help the feelings you have for your children.

Harley Finkelstein (06:37):
It's biological.

Issy Sharp (06:38):
It's there.

Harley Finkelstein (06:38):
Yeah.

Issy Sharp (06:39):
It's there. And a woman has a stronger connection. That umbilical cord never gets cut. So that's what we're all faced with. Now, relationships you have with your wives or husbands changes, [00:07:00] and that's what breaks up a lot of businesses and marriages. If you're fortunate. Look, when you get married, you're young. What do you know? It's sex. It's emotions. It's, "Hey, you're good-looking," and all that. All these things go into those first of relationship building. And it's a question that doesn't change. But what else happens in the course of your growing up together?

(07:30):
[00:07:30] And I think the fact that if you continue having the respect and appreciation of your spouses, appreciation. Never losing the fact that they're special. The same feeling you had because of the hormones which drove you to get together, does now move into a different level of knowing the person, who the person is, [00:08:00] and continuing to appreciate and respect that. So when you ask them a question, when you're talking about something, you really want to know what they have to say. You're not just saying... You're being polite to say, "What do you think about this?" You want that answer from that person.

(08:22):
And I have found over the years that appreciation gets stronger and stronger. [00:08:30] This morning when I'm talking to Rosie and doing something, and she does something, it just... a string of my heart was pulled, because I've never stopped appreciating who she is and what she has given me in terms of my life, by what I've learned, her support, her... [00:09:00] And as you say, your priorities. And I didn't have the experience or understanding of having my priorities in the right place, bringing up the kids. Fortunately, Rosalie filled in the gaps.

(09:21):
I think when I talk about it now, the regrets I have are that I left a lot of that part of my life on the cutting room floor. [00:09:30] I know that. The kids say, "No, dad, you're wrong. You were always there." And Rosie now says, "As much as we..." In her book, she says, "As much as we try to tell him-"

David Segal (09:44):
He doesn't want to...

Issy Sharp (09:45):
"His regrets are still there."

David Segal (09:47):
Could you have done it otherwise?

Issy Sharp (09:49):
No. You're young. Your priorities are all in a different mode of what you're trying to do. Did I have to take all those trips to London?

David Segal (10:00):
[00:10:00] Of course. The deal wouldn't happen.

Issy Sharp (10:03):
That's the result.

David Segal (10:05):
You show up.

Issy Sharp (10:05):
Could I have said, "No, I'll make it a telephone call and we can talk about the same thing?" Because when I used to go over, we didn't accomplish anything. I would have lunch, we'd talk, and we'd go back. So unfortunately, I think I left a lot of the role I played as a father, I believe. But I was there [00:10:30] doing my job when I could. And the kids don't agree with me. Sometimes when I'm holding a town hall and the kids... One of my son's in the audience, and that question always comes up. And he said, "Look, dad, I'm here. You are wrong." I think they see it differently.

(10:56):
And it's tough. You don't build a business by going from eight [00:11:00] to five in the afternoon. It's a 24/7 job. And when they always say, "How can I learn to become an entrepreneur?" You can't. You're born with that innate gene, because that's what drives you. And as much as you have the other priorities clear in your vision, some people are better at [00:11:30] it than others. So I say, it's tough, when you're young, to know what the right thing to do at the right time. But having a spouse, partner that's there to fill in for you, you probably take advantage of it.

David Segal (11:48):
Right. I mean, they're so patient, right? And I imagine it's a two-way street, but from when you're 20 or whatever, when you meet, you're developing all along the way. And I would think sometimes [00:12:00] one partner develops a little faster and then this one catches up.

Issy Sharp (12:04):
No. Rosalie, from my point of view, has never been negative, has never asked me not to take that trip, ever. Knowing full well that I'm going to be gone a week and she's going to be four kids and three in diapers without having help sometimes.

David Segal (12:23):
You guys were partners, though. And so it allowed you to divide and conquer.

Harley Finkelstein (12:30):
[00:12:30] Now you're going to hear from Charles Bronfman, famed philanthropist and entrepreneur, and he talks about work-life balance in terms of how you ensure there's enough time for your children and your grandchildren.

(12:43):
So we talked about loyalty, we talked about ambition, entrepreneurship and all that. I want to talk a little bit about the connection with family, because it's interesting. I mean, you and I, we're meeting now, really for the first time. We've met very briefly, but this is the first time we're sitting down together. But the influence that the family has had [00:13:00] on David and I and so many others, from Sam to Charles to Steven, talk a bit about how you raise family in a way that instills them with ambition, with purpose. It's remarkable how the Bronfman family is not a one-and-done family. I know your great-grandchildren... Excuse me. Your grandchildren, and hopefully I'll know your great-grandchildren one day. But I know your grandchildren. I mean, they are also incredible people. Your granddaughter in particular has babysat my daughter.

David Segal (13:30):
[00:13:30] How do you keep it going?

Harley Finkelstein (13:31):
How do you keep it going? How does this all work?

Charles Bronfman (13:33):
I don't know. I don't know. I just thank God my two kids, and even my step kids, have all turned out so well. My dear wife gives a party every five years for me, and last time was during COVID and we had 36 people. [00:14:00] It was a four-day love-in. They all like each other. How that happens, I don't know. There are a lot of things that just happen without your thinking about them. That's who you are. And I mean, as I said, I would never guess Steven would be who he is. My daughter, Ellen, I never knew inside her like I knew inside Steven, but I knew she'd be fine. She married a terrific, terrific young man [00:14:30] who's been very successful. She had medical problems. She's had medical problems. They have two wonderful kids. My granddaughter, who's now just about to be 22, she's a professional singer. And has sold well.

Harley Finkelstein (14:47):
Amazing.

David Segal (14:48):
Amazing.

Charles Bronfman (14:48):
And she's also a student at Yale. And her brother, who had some physical problems, challenged himself. And while he can't participate on a team, [00:15:00] he will go and do things that are extraordinary. Punishing his body, challenging himself. He went to a school in Colorado that you go out hiking and you get a new set of clothes after nine days. And then you finish the 19th day.

Harley Finkelstein (15:22):
Wow.

Charles Bronfman (15:27):
And this is the day after you arrive at the school and nobody [00:15:30] knows anybody.

Harley Finkelstein (15:31):
Wow.

Charles Bronfman (15:32):
So he challenged himself, got damn good marks. And [inaudible 00:15:37], I think he's already co-editor of the paper.

Harley Finkelstein (15:40):
That's amazing.

Charles Bronfman (15:42):
At this time, wants to be a journalist.

David Segal (15:44):
Amazing.

Charles Bronfman (15:44):
I don't think he will be, but...

Harley Finkelstein (15:47):
But he's ambitious and he's interested.

David Segal (15:49):
He shows up.

Harley Finkelstein (15:53):
Now you're going to hear from Eddie Sonshine, who started RioCan, one of the biggest development companies in Canada, about how dinners with his wife were so, [00:16:00] so important.

(16:03):
I want to go back to that conversation with your wife because one of the commonalities of the people that we're talking to, a lot of them have incredible relationships with their spouse. The spouses play a real role in creating a foundation of support. It sounds like that was the case.

Ed Sonshine (16:18):
No, no, that's absolutely the case with me. Look, we got married when we were two kids. We were stupid. I mean, who gets married at 20? She was 20. And I always make the joke. I say I had to get her married before she knew better. [00:16:30] And while I still had a little bit of hair.

Harley Finkelstein (16:32):
That's right.

Ed Sonshine (16:35):
But the fact is, that's what people did then. We got married quite young, for whatever reason. And I got lucky, she got lucky. And it worked, and we always had the same values. And she's just been... I like to think I've been the same with her, but she's been tremendously supportive of whatever I wanted to do. And she also had the great talent. I mean, I used to schlepp her places. [00:17:00] I still remember when I was a young lawyer, and we took one of our first vacations. This would've been 1974, '75. I wasn't even a partner yet.

(17:11):
And we went with three other couples to the Catskills. A Concord hotel in the Catskills. I don't even know if it exists anymore. We were having a great time. I get a phone call from Lloyd Fogler. "Eddie, I got a meeting in New York..." This was actually the development [00:17:30] of Hazel Lanes. Our client owned the land, and a big American company, Louis Dreyfus Corporation, wanted to build this complex on Dick [inaudible 00:17:40] land. And he says, "We got a meeting in New York." Big huge law firm, Dewey Ballantine, named after Governor Dewey. I mean, they were-

Harley Finkelstein (17:48):
White shoe.

Ed Sonshine (17:49):
White shoe firm. And he said, "I'm not going in there myself." I said, "Lloyd, you got 25 lawyers here. I'm on vacation here at Concord with my wife, with three other couples."

David Segal (17:57):
"I got Jackie Mason here to tell me jokes."

Ed Sonshine (18:00):
[00:18:00] "What do you want from me?" He says, "You got to come to this meeting with me." I said, "I can't leave my wife here." And he said, "I'm sending a car for you..." It was a big deal. "From New York. They're going to pick you up. Bring Fran. I'll bring my wife, Gladys. And they'll spend the day together while you and I go to this meeting and negotiate out this deal if we can." So I tell Fran. I didn't ask her. I told her. And I said, "Fran, [00:18:30] is that okay? Or would you rather just stay here?" She says, "No, I don't want to stay here myself." She said, "But I'm going to spend a whole day with the boss's wife?"

David Segal (18:41):
That's so fun.

Ed Sonshine (18:42):
Because Lloyd was the senior partner. And Gladys was into art and into things. And Fran was 25 years old. Excuse me. And somehow, she spent the day with her. They got along fine. So she's able [00:19:00] to fit in whatever I needed her to fit in.

David Segal (19:03):
Family is extremely important to us. And we just had Issy Sharp on, and we were talking about family as well, and how difficult it is to maintain, call it harmony, call it balance, with your kids, your wife, and still build this business that is not, let's face it, eight to five, or it's 24/7, right? How did you-

Ed Sonshine (19:24):
When I was your age, the phrase work-life balance did not exist.

David Segal (19:28):
Not a thing. Right. And [00:19:30] yet, one of the things Jonathan pointed out is that you've done such an amazing job establishing strong relationships with both your kids and your grandkids, and you're very close with all of them. How were you able to do that and still build RioCan?

Harley Finkelstein (19:48):
How do we do that?

David Segal (19:48):
How do we do it? Yeah.

Ed Sonshine (19:50):
Honestly, you have to have a great spouse, and then you have to take certain times. Once my son... [00:20:00] One of my grandkids asked me, they said, "[inaudible 00:20:03], you got any regrets?" I said, "I never have regrets." You ask me what deals. I just don't... No point in looking backwards. Whatever happened, happened. Now move on. I think I learned that from my parents. Yeah. Never look back. And I said, "I don't have regrets, but..." I pretended to have a regret. I said, "But if I had to do it over again, maybe I would've spent a little more time with you guys when you were little, [00:20:30] with my kids, your parents." And my son, Daniel, who was a very successful young man... He's not so young. He's 48. And he turned to me, he says, "You spent enough time with us, Dad." It was okay. That's Daniel. His wife thinks he and I share a brain.

(20:48):
But anyway. You know what? I did manage to, as busy as I was, I knew I needed a break, just for me, and for my family. [00:21:00] So at Christmastime, didn't matter what else was going on, we'd go away for three weeks with the whole family. We didn't go to Turks and Caicos, but we'd go to Caribbean, go to Florida, went to Hawaii three times. Then I decided it wasn't worth it. It was just too far.

Harley Finkelstein (21:15):
Too far, too far. I agree.

Ed Sonshine (21:16):
It was just too far [inaudible 00:21:18]. We went there. It was beautiful, gorgeous. But just too far. But we always-

Harley Finkelstein (21:21):
Jews are all the same. Hawaii's beautiful. It's too far.

Ed Sonshine (21:24):
It's true. Unless you live in Vancouver. Most gorgeous place in the world. Nah, it's a little far, no? [00:21:30] So anyway... You're right. So I always spent three weeks with them. And then my wife, because I could be a guy... I mean, I could... Just the way I was. Whatever had to be done, I'd just do it. And if that meant I was not home four nights a week, I wasn't home. Early on, when I was still a lawyer, she made a deal with me. And she said, "Eddie, [00:22:00] look. I know you got to do what you got to do. That's your job, is to make money so we can live nice. But three rules. Number one, you always got to come home for Friday night dinner. I don't care. I understand if a bomb's going off or something in one of your buildings. You got to come home for Friday night dinner. If you got to leave later, leave. But you got to be home."

Harley Finkelstein (22:26):
Shabbos dinner together.

Ed Sonshine (22:27):
Got to have it. Number two, [00:22:30] you have to be home for dinner at least one other night a week, during the week. She says, "That's for me. I'm tired of having dinner with just the three kids. It'd be nice to be able to talk to [inaudible 00:22:43]-"

Harley Finkelstein (22:43):
"An adult." Yeah.

Ed Sonshine (22:44):
"And if after they go to bed, you got to leave again-"

David Segal (22:47):
No problem.

Ed Sonshine (22:47):
... "Go. But you got to be home one night at dinner." And she says, "Saturday night, I don't care how tired you are by Saturday night, we're going out socially with somebody else. Other adults." [00:23:00] It doesn't sound like a lot to ask for."

Harley Finkelstein (23:01):
Doesn't sound [inaudible 00:23:01].

David Segal (23:01):
Not that bad, no.

Ed Sonshine (23:02):
And so I said, "Okay, you're right." So I always did that and we always went away for three weeks with the kids. So somehow... But you know what? And we've been really blessed with our children. They're all great. They all live here in Toronto, which I worked hard at, because two of them went to school in the States, and...

David Segal (23:23):
The cottage probably helped.

Ed Sonshine (23:24):
Well, yeah, but the cottage is recent. I was-

David Segal (23:27):
And [inaudible 00:23:30].

Ed Sonshine (23:30):
[00:23:30] I don't know why anybody wants to go north of Steels. I never got it. I never understood cottages. I used to make fun of them. Look at them sitting there. "Oh, look at a beautiful sunset." I say, "A bunch of morons." That was my view. They make a fire and look at the sunset. That sounds like a lot of fun to me. I mean, I believe in getting things done.

David Segal (23:49):
Yeah.

Ed Sonshine (23:50):
So then about five years ago, six years ago... Maybe a little over five, I decided I had already turned 70 and [00:24:00] I said, "I can't keep working forever. I got to make room. It's a public company. And I got to make room for the next guy." And plus, I didn't want to work this hard anymore. And so I said, "I got to start making plans. Got to start planning ahead and getting succession planning, but also planning for myself. What'll I do when I don't work full-time?" And so I remember this summer, I took a practice week off, which I never did. [00:24:30] I took a week off. "I'm not coming into the office this week." And I went to play golf with the other old guys that had already retired or sold their businesses.

David Segal (24:39):
Picked up a challah?

Ed Sonshine (24:42):
Picked up a challah one day. And I came home at the end of the week. I said, "Frannie, if I got to do this for a whole summer..." Because we were getting tired of traveling. We used to go away in the summer too, just the two of us. Kids would go to summer camp. We'd go away for two, three weeks. I said, "I'm getting tired of traveling." I said, "I can't spend a summer like [00:25:00] this. Let's do something else." She said, "What?" I said, "How about buying a cottage?" She's wanted a cottage for 40 years, as did my kids. I said, "How about we buy a cottage?" So we did. I bought it. My timing turned out to be perfect. I bought it in the fall of 2018.

David Segal (25:15):
Perfect.

Ed Sonshine (25:16):
2019 was our first summer in it. And then the next year, a pandemic hit, and everybody showed up.

Harley Finkelstein (25:22):
Right. And apparently no boats, no water, no thank you. But then within a week, you had a whole flotilla worth of boats.

Ed Sonshine (25:28):
Well, if you're going to do something, you do it.

Harley Finkelstein (25:30):
[00:25:30] Yeah. Well, you're also on Lake Joseph with one of the most... I think, right? You're on Lake Joseph?

Ed Sonshine (25:32):
We're on Lake Joseph.

David Segal (25:34):
That's actually one of Harley's favorite sayings is-

Ed Sonshine (25:36):
It was by accident.

David Segal (25:36):
... Is, "How you do anything is how you do everything."

Ed Sonshine (25:39):
Well, you know what? We made up our mind. And I have a good friend of mine, Howard [inaudible 00:25:45], who's on Lake Rosseau. The only thing I asked Fran, I said, "Fran, I said, do you want to be in Muskoka or you want to be on Lake Simcoe?" She said, "Eddie, we're not going up for the weekend. Let's go where it's beautiful. We're going to Muskoka." I said, "Okay." But like always, she says, "A [00:26:00] couple of conditions. It's got to be big enough that all our kids can come up with their families and stay. And we've got to know some people in the area. I'm too old to make new friends." Which is not true. We make a lot of new friends up there. So I said, "Okay." So I call up my friend Howard, who had a cottage on Rosseau and was a big cottage guy. But I said, "Howard, I'm thinking of buying a cottage." "Great. I'll be your consultant."

(26:25):
So we go up, and I said, "I don't need [00:26:30] you [inaudible 00:26:31]. Give me a name of a good broker." Gives me a broker. He said, "When you're going up, I'll come with you." "Okay." So we go up with the broker and we looked at three, four places. And there was only one. It was a fairly new cottage, built five years ago, because I decided I didn't want to build because it takes forever.

Harley Finkelstein (26:47):
Too long.

Ed Sonshine (26:48):
I was too old. And so we bought this cottage, and it was great. And so I told the agent, I said," I think this is the one." Howard says, "You can't buy the cottage yet." I said, "Why [00:27:00] not?" He said, "Well, you haven't seen it from the water." I said, "You got to see it from the water?" I said, "Why?" He says, "You got to..." Anyway. He insisted. I go over to his cottage with him and get in his boat. We boated over. It's November. It was cold. And we boated over to my cottage, and... If you want to cut this out later you can.

Harley Finkelstein (27:19):
I won't. This is amazing.

Ed Sonshine (27:20):
We're coming at it from the water, and I didn't know the property. It's a big property. It's about 1100 feet of lakefront. There's a flag pole on the point. It's [00:27:30] a point called Hemlock Point. It's off Hemlock Point Road. And there's a flag pole. And on the flag pole, there's two flags. It's a Canadian flag on top, and a German flag underneath it. And we're both looking at this flag, Howard and I.

David Segal (27:47):
Two Jews.

Ed Sonshine (27:48):
And my wife says, "What are you doing?" I said, "How can I buy this cottage? I'm buying it from a German." I said, "A guy who flies a German flag." And she says, "Why [00:28:00] don't you look at it, you're liberating it from a German." I said, "You know what? You're right. And what have I got against Germans at this point? He's obviously a Canadian guy. But he's proud of his German heritage. Okay." Anyway, I met the guy. His name was... He was from Vancouver. He was actually in the gaming business. He made a fortune in video games. But anyway... He still does. And he decided to build another... He liked building cottage. So we bought it.

David Segal (28:28):
Amazing.

Ed Sonshine (28:28):
And I said to [00:28:30] Fran, I said, Look, there used to be a German flag up there. What about we put up an Israeli flag?" She says, "You don't think you're enough of a target?"

Harley Finkelstein (28:37):
It's true.

Ed Sonshine (28:38):
So there's only a Canadian flag up there now.