How Issy Sharp Built The Four Seasons and Transformed The Hospitality Industry Forever (Part 1)

Harley Finkelstein (00:00:00):
So this next interview was so great, incredible interview that we actually decided to cut up into two parts. This is our first two-parter ever for Big Shot.

David Segal (00:00:09):
And we're talking to a guy in his 90s.

Harley Finkelstein (00:00:13):
Yeah, I think he's 93 years old or something,

David Segal (00:00:15):
Something like that. And he comes in with the energy of a young man. Yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (00:00:17):
And frankly, we could have sat with him for 10 hours and it was just banger after banger in terms of lessons and anecdotes and stories. And the person that we sat down with is none other.

David Segal (00:00:28):
Issy Sharp.

Harley Finkelstein (00:00:29):
Issy Sharp.

David Segal (00:00:30):
The founder of the Four Seasons Hotel.

Harley Finkelstein (00:00:32):
Now, what's so amazing about the stories he told is that he really went to the weeds. He gives the inside scoop on things. He talked about the fact that, I mean, the Four Seasons Hotel stands for luxury and class and style and design. But the first ever Four Seasons Hotel was actually in the Red Light District in Toronto.

David Segal (00:00:51):
It was on, there's the wrong side of the tracks, and then this is the wrong side of the wrong.

Harley Finkelstein (00:00:57):
Exactly. It's totally different. So he starts there and he builds this thing and it turns to this global empire. And not just does he create this wonderful brand and hotel, but he changes the business model of how hotels get built.

David Segal (00:01:10):
And I mean, here's somebody who never thought he'd be in the hotel business, right? I mean, he's a builder. He ends up building a motel for someone and he does something very unconventional that you wouldn't think about on the surface.

Harley Finkelstein (00:01:21):
Yeah. That story is incredible. I love that.

David Segal (00:01:23):
And a game changer.

Harley Finkelstein (00:01:24):
Issy is really a polymath. And what I mean by that is he pulls inside information input across every single discipline. And then he creates and shapes these, this hotel, these buildings, this culture in a way that it's just incredibly inspiring. No matter what industry you are in, no matter what you were doing with your life, there is so much you can learn from this particular interview. It's incredible.

David Segal (00:01:46):
He's someone that, I mean, it took him decades to be an overnight success. I mean, even the story of how long it took him to have his first hotel. And then, from getting from his first hotel to his second hotel, and the lessons he learned along the way, it's incredible.

Harley Finkelstein (00:02:00):
And like a lot of our other guests, one thing that comes out is that his connection, his relationship to his family. In particular to his wife, right? How he talks about his wife with incredible respect and care and appreciation and gratitude. It's something that everyone who is married or anyone who's in a relationship, we can all learn from. Because one of the secrets to the success of Issy Sharp and Four Seasons is Rosie.

David Segal (00:02:22):
Oh, big time. He's got a seven 70 year love story partnership. They've been an incredible family. But best of all, I mean, the story of how he goes to meet his father-in-law, who wasn't too sure about him at first, and what he does to win over his father-in-law-

Harley Finkelstein (00:02:39):
That story, it's amazing. So I think we talk about love, we talk about culture, we talk about building, we talk about success, we talk about capitalism, we talk about business models. This is one of those episodes that we could not package everything into one single episode. So we decided to cut up into two. And honestly, if you're going to make a two-parter for anyone, Issy Sharp is the one you do it for. The other thing we have to talk about, and we have to at least acknowledge, is he had some early investors in the Four Seasons business when things were just getting started.

David Segal (00:03:10):
Oh, I mean, I can't even calculate the return on investments.

Harley Finkelstein (00:03:13):
It must be one of the greatest investments of all times.

David Segal (00:03:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (00:03:18):
These people gave him $90,000 to invest in this tiny business that turned into a multi billion dollar empire. The way he tells it, how he goes into details about what that investment meant from a percentage perspective, from an equity perspective, and what that is today, there's nothing like it.

David Segal (00:03:34):
And it's also, I mean, he really had strong morals. He took care of them. He could have, there's a million in one ways, he could have tried to play games to get them out of that whole thing. And they gave him what ended up being a very small amount. And he stuck with them for many decades because they believed in him in the early days and they became very, very wealthy off this one small investment.

Harley Finkelstein (00:03:53):
Ladies and gentlemen, you are going to hear about probably the greatest investment of all times that none of you have ever heard about. And we share it today with Issy Sharp.

(00:04:19):
So this is amazing. Issy, thank you for joining us. This project for us, Big Shot, is part documentary and part sort of kibitzing in an old school Jewish deli. David and I are proud Jewish entrepreneurs, and frankly, we've been inspired by the greats, the great Jewish entrepreneurs that have come before us. And in our view, I think you may not want to say this, but in our view, you are one of the greatest Jewish entrepreneurs. And part of what we want to talk about is your story. We've obviously read your wife's book, we've done our research, but we also want to hear a little bit about what you think is unique about Jewish entrepreneurship, the chutzpah, the audacity, the ambition. And if you sort of think about what you built with Four Seasons, let me just throw out a couple numbers here. So the company you started, Four Seasons, has currently 45,000 employees.

(00:05:11):
You have 124 locations in 47 countries. 23 years in a row, Fortune Magazine ranked Four Seasons as the world's best company to work for. And this is kind of neat. Steve Jobs actually credits Four Seasons customer service as the inspiration for the Apple Store. That is incredible. But we want to go way, way back. And we want to talk about even before you built that first 125 room hotel in 1961, we want to talk about you growing up and what it was like growing up in the Sharp household. You've talked about your mother being the matriarch of the family, but what was childhood like for you?

Issy Sharp (00:05:52):
Well, you're right. When I say my mother was the matriarch, she ruled the house. She was the head of the business that my dad, she would direct what he should do. He was born from the Talmud. He was slated to be a rabbi. He was born in what is now known as Auschwitz. So his life was steeped in the religious beliefs, and he lived those, but never asked my mother to have a kosher home per se. We did do all the normal things the immigrants did when they came to America. So she really was a force. She was actually brought over by her older brother to marry my father. Arranged marriages, that was the norm. But she wouldn't have any part of it. I think she was 16 when she got here, and she was tall and a beautiful woman.

(00:07:08):
But my dad persevered and finally won her over. And to the end, it was a honeymoon. He had her on a pedestal. And their love affair, and at that time, arranged marriages like Fiddler on the Roof, Do You Love Me? It was a true love affair. And when she died, and we were all in the hospital when that happened, we are wheeling her down the court. Now she had died and a dead person doesn't necessarily look the way she looked. And he's looking down at her and he says to the doctor, "Doctor, isn't she beautiful?" In his eyes, she never changed. She was that young, beautiful 16 year old that he had married. So our life with my three sisters was a tough upbringing. We were struggling as most immigrants were at that time. They didn't have the language, they didn't have the money.

(00:08:23):
They needed to work hard. And every penny was important to them. So as one boy and three sisters, my hand-me-downs were quite funny for me to go to school with some of the clothes that I had to wear. But our upbringing, and I refer to this, that we're born with our own genes and our own skills that come from generations past. But I think it's the nurture which we have and the nature of what we're born with. And we were fortunate that my parents brought us up like they were brought up, to be self-sufficient. They never asked us or told us what to do. We went out. They didn't say, where are you going? And when they came back, they didn't say, where were you? It was always they trusted, my three sisters and I, that we would get by. So we were fortunate to have a supportive upbringing that allowed each of us to develop our skills, find our way. We were never told what we should become. You grow up as a Jewish child, your parents' child, you follow what they expect you to do, which we did.

David Segal (00:09:55):
I read a great story about your dad. First of all, that his work ethic on his honeymoon, he stayed home until nine o'clock before he went to work. That's how hard he worked. That was sleeping in for him.

Issy Sharp (00:10:06):
That was it.

David Segal (00:10:07):
But one of the stories that really hit me was he was making, I believe, $15 an hour as a plasterer. And he decides he's going to go off on his own in the construction business, and he gets his first contract and he quotes based off of faulty information, which I don't think the project went very well because he honors the contract, even though it means he's going to lose. But he does that out of principle. I'm curious what kind of impact that had on you?

Issy Sharp (00:10:33):
Well, you learn about that later on in life, what he did. And I think your principles and values that you inherit aren't what parents tell you. It's how they are. It's like osmosis. You learn by example of how they are treating people and how they treat you. So that experience of living up to your word, your bond, is important. You make a commitment, you live up to it.

David Segal (00:11:08):
Even if it costs you money.

Issy Sharp (00:11:10):
It cost him for years. They were paying off the debt that they had.

David Segal (00:11:14):
From that first project?

Issy Sharp (00:11:15):
From that first project.

David Segal (00:11:16):
Wow.

Issy Sharp (00:11:18):
And my mother would not, to her, that's what you have to do. You made a mistake, that's it, you'll do it. So they struggled and finally paid it off. And then he then slowly got into the building business. And as a kid growing up, that was my life. Loved working on construction. Somehow it was like a challenge. I played a lot of sports and that competition was part of my life. So when I was working on construction with these tough, tough immigrants, Polish, Italian, Jewish, they just were so thankful to have a job. And when you saw how they worked, what a lesson, and you tried to live up. So you could never quite do it as well as they did. But I think you earn the respect with your efforts. So growing up and working on construction during the summer was my life. And I really enjoyed that challenge, whether it's working in the heat and the dust, or when I was older, working in the cold. So it was great training.

Harley Finkelstein (00:12:42):
There's this interesting thing, a piece of research that Dave and I picked up, which is to this day, there's not a single Four Seasons where the architectural drawings go forward without your approval. Did you care about architecture and design in those first couple of years when you were on the construction sites? Was architecture and the beauty of the building, was that something you thought about or was it more a job?

Issy Sharp (00:13:08):
Well, when I started the company, the architecture was a big part of my expertise. That's what I studied and that's what I was conscious of, the aesthetics. But it's not that I was the designer. I knew that if you hired the best in their fields, you're going to get something better than what you could do yourself. So we always hired the people that we thought could do the job best. I critiqued rather than created. And my approach to it was more from a functional point of view, because design should function, should direct design. So my look at what they were presenting, I would always make a decision based upon the practicality of it. As a builder, I knew what was difficult to build and what wasn't. So I could control costs by simplifying things from a construction point of view. But basically, most of the design that people show you, you accept. So you're really tweaking the edges. And to this day, same principle applies.

David Segal (00:14:33):
I'm going to switch gears to talk about love, which has obviously played a huge role in your life. Harley and I are both married with children, and family is extremely important to us.

Harley Finkelstein (00:14:44):
And we hope to be married for 70 years.

David Segal (00:14:46):
That's right.

Harley Finkelstein (00:14:46):
I believe it's 70 years now for you and Rosalie.

David Segal (00:14:47):
Yeah, but we got to go back to 1952. You're working construction, you're just getting your start in this construction business. You're dating Rosalie, your now long wife, over 70 years. And her father forbids her from seeing you. He wants a doctor, a lawyer, not a guy schlepping construction.

Harley Finkelstein (00:15:05):
What's the famous joke?

David Segal (00:15:08):
What's the joke for the audience? The first Jewish president, Mrs. Goldstein, sitting next to the vice president. It's the inauguration. And the vice president turns to Mrs. Goldstein and says, "Mrs. Goldstein, you must be so proud. Your son, he's the first Jewish president. My God." She goes, "I am, I am. But you know? His brother's a doctor." And so, like many Jewish parents at the time, and probably even still to this day, her parents wanted her to marry a doctor, a lawyer, somebody who could be a professional. And I imagine because they had schlepped in dry goods, in schmuttahs or whatever, most Jewish immigrants or immigrants in general at the time. But here she comes to see you. She's upset because her father got upset, threw her out of the house, because she saw you even though she wasn't supposed to. And you say, "Come, we're going to go talk to your dad." So what isn't covered in the book is, which I'm dying to know, is you walk into that room, her father's sitting there. What did you say?

Issy Sharp (00:16:05):
Well, I don't remember what I said, but the reason, and it wasn't because I was basically in construction. It was more that I was a bit of a near too good. I was taking out other girls. I was having a good time as a kid growing up. When you're 20, 21, you're playing the field. So even though I was dating Rosalie, I was also taking out other girls, and some were a little-

David Segal (00:16:34):
A bit of a player.

Issy Sharp (00:16:36):
Yeah, and some were questionable. So apparently one of his friends saw me with one of these questionable girls, and that's why he forbade her to see me again. He said, "Look, this guy's not trustworthy." So when she came to my construction job and said, "I don't know what to do/ my father locked me out because I disobeyed. I was disobedient." So my first reaction was, "Okay, let's go talk to him." And I don't know why. I'm only 20 years old, but my whole life has been that example of I never ever have feared the talking or doing things. I've never, ever, for whatever reason, your brain works certain ways. I've never had a fear of failure. When I was doing something, it just doesn't even pass through my mind that it might not work. So I think it was that, call it gene that you have in your mind that, look, there's only one way to do it. We'll go talk to him.

Harley Finkelstein (00:17:56):
Chutzpah.

Issy Sharp (00:17:57):
Yeah, it is. And as Rosie said, I stood there listening to him and his quiet, polite way, which has been my way of communicating. I find the right thing to say at the right time. And in a polite, pleasant way. So I must have mentioned to him that my heart is really with your daughter. You might have seen me out doing other things, but we're young and not ready to get married now. But I must have assured him that my true love was Rosie. So it had to be something like that.

Harley Finkelstein (00:18:50):
And you were a man of character also, because you're not just some-

Issy Sharp (00:18:52):
Well, I think the fact that I would dare to approach him, right?

David Segal (00:18:56):
Takes guts.

Issy Sharp (00:18:57):
Takes guts. So he must have, from his upbringing for what he had and his challenges that he had to do, it must have reminded him of himself, that he approached life that way and built his way up without no compromise. So I think just the fact that I was prepared to talk to him. It's not what I said. It was just the action.

Harley Finkelstein (00:19:31):
The act of doing that.

Issy Sharp (00:19:32):
Immediate action of, okay, let's go talk to your dad. So I think in his mind, he probably wasn't even listening to what I said. It was just-

David Segal (00:19:43):
It's like, the chutzpah of this kid to come talk to me and show up like this.

Harley Finkelstein (00:19:45):
I would've done the same thing if I was that guy, right? So I think about, you talked about you've never had a fear of failure. And I wonder how much of that came from your upbringing, your parents instilling with you this sense of confidence. Did you feel, I mean, you talked about them providing you, creating an environment for you to be independent, but did they also provide you with a swagger or a confidence that you can do whatever you want to do?

Issy Sharp (00:20:14):
It wouldn't be swagger. It would be trust in your beliefs. Because that was my mother and my father. They both struggled to get to where they were. And you saw that. And I think you're born with a certain self-esteem that they encourage. That's what I mentioned with the nurturing is they didn't suppress you in your thoughts. So it built in myself and my sisters, I think, confidence and belief in yourself. Because my mother did. I mean, she didn't have the language, but she was certain of her opinion. I mean, there's no doubt. Rosie described it as a woman of no self doubt. She wasn't born here with all the policies and etiquette. And she could be quite rude, but she had no malice. It wasn't like she was intending to be rude. That was her.

(00:21:31):
And she was going to speak her mind. And if you didn't like what she said, it's your problem. But it wasn't with malice. It would always be, I remember my dad's brother, they were partners together and he sort of took advantage and he was older and went off and made a lot of money, but he didn't take my father with him. Even though they were plastering partners, he went off, and my father wasn't. It would be easy for him, come on Max, let's do it together. So she was always angry with him about that. And I could often hear them yelling and screaming at each other, this, that.

Harley Finkelstein (00:22:21):
He's screwing you, stuff like that.

Issy Sharp (00:22:24):
But at the end of the conversation, he said, "Okay, okay, Louie, that's enough. That's enough. You'll come for dinner with Rose, the kids. We'll have dinner together tonight." It was that way.

David Segal (00:22:34):
And that was it?

Issy Sharp (00:22:35):
Yeah. It was like, you've said your peace. I told you what I thought, now we're still friends. So you grow up with that principle of, you stand your ground. And my whole life, I've never been intimidated. I've never shied away. And I often wonder, how'd I do that? Like today with a little more maturity. And I said, I have no idea why I had the courage or chutzpah to go up to the most important corporation in the world, ITT, and I think I can make a deal with them. That's ridiculous. But in my mind, hey, it's a good idea. I think they might like to hear about it. So my belief in my idea never wavered. I just had a conviction and I couldn't understand why other people didn't see it. So I think as you both have done, you believed in what you were doing and gave you the perseverance to overcome the skeptics and the difficulties. Because you could see the end, it's got to work. I will find a way to make this work.

David Segal (00:23:55):
Oh, you certainly did.

Issy Sharp (00:23:58):
So there've been so many situations like that, that for some reason I've never felt out of place talking to royalty or business people who are way beyond my reach. For whatever reason, I just felt I'm okay and not trying to pretend and be anything other than what I am.

Harley Finkelstein (00:24:26):
Let's talk a bit about that transition from you doing construction to that first, that transition to the hotel business. You were hired, Jack Gold hired you to build a hotel. And I believe the story goes that he wanted you to build a certain number of rooms. Dave probably has details Dave knows all this stuff.

David Segal (00:24:48):
14 rooms.

Harley Finkelstein (00:24:49):
But actually-

David Segal (00:24:50):
Well, I mean, according to Rosalie, it was 14 rooms. And you said, look, the location here is not so great. The sign, you need good signage for people to see this thing. Why don't I build you 28? I won't finish the other 14, and it won't cost you very much more, but you'll have double the roof space. You can put the sign up. He said, sure. And then business was good. And then not only the 14 you built were great, but then you finished the other 14.

Harley Finkelstein (00:25:12):
So that was was Issy Sharp's introduction to the hotel business. You built a hotel for someone else. What was that like? I mean, that was sort of-

David Segal (00:25:22):
Light bulb went off.

Harley Finkelstein (00:25:23):
That was your introduction to what would become Four Seasons. But talk to us a little bit about that first project and building that first hotel for Jack.

Issy Sharp (00:25:34):
Well, it was a job. As we built a factory for people, a house for people, it was just that was the business that we were in at that time. So to me, what he was doing just didn't make sense. It was in the middle of nowhere. It was in a residential area, and you couldn't get into it off the highway. You had to get into this residential area and then find this building. And it just looked like a house. So I said, "Jack, how are people going to get here?" He said, "Look, don't tell me. I investigated. This will work." I say, "I'm not telling it won't work, but I say, don't you think it'd be better if it looked like a motel? Seven rooms. It looks like a big house." So I said, "Why don't you make it bigger? And we could the roof, and you'll able to on the roof put a big sign so people five miles away will know there's something up there that I have to look to get off this highway."

(00:26:38):
So he did. And immediately after he opened, shortly after he called me, he says, you got to come finish these rooms. I'm filled every night. So it occurred to me, if this little motel works here off a limited access highway, wouldn't the idea of a motel downtown be better? Well, that was the beginning of a five year journey of working at night to try to put together the idea of convincing people this might work. And the answer I kept getting was, look, I know you don't know how to build it because you don't even know what you're talking about. I said, I know I'm not going to run the hotel. I'm just saying the idea of this.

(00:27:28):
So that fell on deaf ears, but I believed this would work. I just couldn't understand why other people couldn't see it. So when the spark of an idea doesn't go out, it gives you the conviction. So a week turned into a month, turned into a year, turned into two, three, four. Now I'm sure if I would've started, if I thought it's going to take me five years, because I'm still trying to put food on the table. I'm struggling to make a living, and this is my nighttime job.

Harley Finkelstein (00:28:09):
Because you're running, so just to be clear, set the stage here. During the day, you're running your construction business, and at night, you're tinkering on this hotel idea.

Issy Sharp (00:28:17):
Yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (00:28:18):
Okay. So it wasn't a full-time thing. And was the reason it wasn't a full-time thing predominantly because you weren't sure if it was going to work? It's kind of a strange hobby to have. Most people on nights and weekends are playing sports, or they're drinking with friends, or they're going out.

David Segal (00:28:33):
Doing a podcast.

Harley Finkelstein (00:28:33):
A major podcast. But your hobby, Issy, on nights and weekends was conceptualizing what would become the Four Seasons Motor Inn.

Issy Sharp (00:28:43):
Yeah. I wouldn't describe it as a hobby because I'm trying to make a deal to make money. Because in doing this, I was never even thinking that I was going to run a hotel. To me, it was a real estate deal. [inaudible 00:29:00] And that was my business.

David Segal (00:29:01):
You're a construction guy.

Issy Sharp (00:29:03):
I could build it, make it, and probably sell it. It's the business. Real estate is a commodity. It's not something you own all the time. It's something you build and most likely you sell. So to me, that was it. It was a business to try to make a little more money from what I was doing. And eventually, I was able to cobble together enough money by getting my sub trades. You hire sub trades, plumbers, electricians. No, I got them to agree to defer my payments. So let me build this and I will pay you part of what the contract is, and after the building is up, I'll either sell it or make some money, and then I'll pay you more.

Harley Finkelstein (00:29:57):
Wow. So you're saying, technically the first sort of quasi investors, investors, they wouldn't give you money, but investors in terms of their work in the Four Seasons were your sub-trades.

Issy Sharp (00:30:10):
Right, right.

Harley Finkelstein (00:30:11):
That's incredible.

Issy Sharp (00:30:12):
I had two partners who put in $90,000 each. 90,000.

Harley Finkelstein (00:30:18):
These were friends? Business associates?

Issy Sharp (00:30:20):
My brother-in-law and his best friend, Murray Kaufler, Eddie Creed. They each invested $90,000. And then I had, over the years, badgered the person who lent me money to build houses [inaudible 00:30:36] Forsyth of Great West Life Insurance. I'd go down to him and bother him, and he would tell me what, because he knew about hotels. So over a few years, he kept giving me advice and finally said, "Look, leave me alone. You're never going to get this done." I said, "But if I do get it done, will you give me a mortgage on this?" He said, "I'll give you 50% mortgage if you can get the other money." So I came back to him and I said, "Look, I think I've got the other money." He said, "That's not money. I want equity. You're borrowing 100%." I said, "No, we've got 100". He said, "That's peanuts." I said, "But your mortgage is safe. Building goes up, what do you care? If it doesn't work-"

Harley Finkelstein (00:31:30):
So you get the building.

Issy Sharp (00:31:31):
So you only got 50% value. He said, "Okay." That was the financing that got put together. The remarkable part of it is the two investors each put up $90,000. They never, ever put up another cent and were partners for life. So if you think of what they earned-

Harley Finkelstein (00:32:00):
That must be the greatest return of any investment in history.

Issy Sharp (00:32:04):
Yeah. It's never ever been achieved that they, with $90,000 each became a 25% shareholder.

Harley Finkelstein (00:32:14):
Oh my God. In Four Seasons each. Incredible. And these are people that they believed in you when no one else did.

Issy Sharp (00:32:21):
Well, they said, look, what do we got to lose?

Harley Finkelstein (00:32:25):
Although $90,000 in those days presumably was a lot of money.

Issy Sharp (00:32:29):
Yeah. But it was the debt. They call it the cost. I forget what the cost was for the original, but it was like 90% debt.

Harley Finkelstein (00:32:40):
Right. Okay.

Issy Sharp (00:32:41):
So there was like a 10% equity.

David Segal (00:32:43):
Got it. But then you build this Motor Inn. This is not the Four Seasons we know today.

Harley Finkelstein (00:32:48):
No, it's a Four Season Motor Inn on Jarvis Street.

David Segal (00:32:50):
Which is not Fifth Avenue.

Harley Finkelstein (00:32:51):
Yeah. I mean, it's downtown Toronto. But it's not a fancy area.

Issy Sharp (00:32:56):
Right. It's the wrong side of the track.

Harley Finkelstein (00:32:59):
Exactly. It is that.

Issy Sharp (00:33:00):
This was so far off the wrong side of the track because it was Hooker's Paradise.

Harley Finkelstein (00:33:05):
Yes.

Issy Sharp (00:33:05):
Jarvis Street was the Red Light District of Toronto.

Harley Finkelstein (00:33:10):
The first Four Seasons was basically in the Red Light District. Why did you end up, before we go there, why did you end up naming it Four Seasons?

Issy Sharp (00:33:21):
The first name was not Four Seasons. The first name, this is in 1959 that we're building it. And the Thunderbird car was just coming out from Ford. And that sounded like, gee, that's really a fancy name. We couldn't get it because somebody else had already called a motel the Thunderbird. So we're having a conversation with my two partners once, and Eddie Creed was talking about, he just came back. He was the world traveler because his business was retail. And he was talking about he stayed in this hotel in Germany called The [foreign language 00:33:59] Side. And I said, "That translates to the Four Seasons. That was the market's research. The name just hit me as it rang right.

Harley Finkelstein (00:34:15):
It's a nice name.

David Segal (00:34:16):
And you make the name at the end of the day.

Issy Sharp (00:34:18):
A name is only what the product is. Google.

Harley Finkelstein (00:34:24):
Starbucks.

Issy Sharp (00:34:26):
Apple. They mean nothing until you connect it to the name. But I must admit that that name Four Seasons would ring better than the Thunderbird.

Harley Finkelstein (00:34:38):
Yeah, I'm not sure it would have the same longevity in terms of this incredible, beautiful place with the great hospitality and great care. Four Seasons is a little bit more accessible.

David Segal (00:34:50):
Ladies and gentlemen, we're here today with Issy Sharp from the Thunderbird Hotel.

Harley Finkelstein (00:34:51):
Well, the Thunderbird, if it's a Motor Inn, Thunderbird's pretty good.

David Segal (00:34:56):
Yeah, that's right.

Harley Finkelstein (00:34:57):
Yeah. So you spent five years building the Four Seasons Motor Inn. Why did it take five years? Is that just how long a hotel takes to build?

Issy Sharp (00:35:06):
Because people didn't believe me. They said, you don't know anything about it. If I know something about the hotel business, it's a risky business to begin with. There was one man that financed rooms for most people in real estate, Max Tannenbaum, who at that time was one of the wealthiest developers, and he was in the steel business in Canada.

David Segal (00:35:33):
This is Larry's father.

Issy Sharp (00:35:35):
Larry's father. Larry's one of the youngest of the many children. And he and my dad were friends and partners, built up an apartment building together. So I approached Max, like everybody approached Max Tannenbaum. And he said, "Look, take my word for it, kid. You don't know anything about this. I do. And you'll beat your brains out. Don't touch it." Now, when Max tells you not to do something, usually you do it. You don't do it. Because he's a successful businessman. But to me, it just didn't make sense that people couldn't see why, if this little motel on the highway works so well, why wouldn't it be more successful in a convenient downtown location? And the reason I'm on Jarvis Street is because there land was cheap. So I could buy a lot of land inexpensively. And I knew people coming from out of town, they wouldn't know whether it's Red Light District or not. They'll know if the building is worthwhile staying at. So it's all these things. You have ideas and you have the belief in them.

David Segal (00:36:52):
I mean, you can't knock them for not seeing the vision. I mean, here you are opening a hotel in the Red Light District. What do you think was it, what were they some of the key things that made that hotel successful? And were those things that became pillars for the Four Seasons later on or?

Issy Sharp (00:37:09):
Yeah. Yeah. It's the research that I was doing to try to understand the business. I traveled and spoke to a lot of people over those many years. As I'm doing it, I'm also thinking of, what would be the right thing to build? And there was an article I read about a man, Elliot Fry, I think his name was. He was a furniture design builder. And called and he said, "Come down, I'll talk to you." And I said-

Harley Finkelstein (00:37:43):
Where was he?

Issy Sharp (00:37:45):
He lived, I think it was in Houston. So I flew down, met with him, and while we were talking, we were in a downtown place in his hotel. And it was like in a courtyard, and it was right across from a bus station. If you went out of that courtyard, you were in the middle of a busy, noisy place that looked like a dump. So that rang a bell with me. So when I'm designing the hotel on Jarvis Street, I gave it direction to the architects. I said, I want to build this like the old medieval cities where you have walls and people live inside. So there'll be a courtyard, but very few rooms will face the street. They will all face into the courtyard, and the courtyard will become a garden, a swimming pool. It'll be like an oasis.

(00:38:48):
So you had to get people to look at what you're building as a reason to go there. And that concept of creating aesthetically pleasing using gardens as the atmosphere really became the style that got us going from thereafter. Yeah, I think you learn things. Over those five years, you're gaining some insight into what it is you think will work. Not just a strip motel anymore. So, you develop your ideas based upon a lot of conversations with other people. So those five years weren't a waste just knocking on doors.

Harley Finkelstein (00:39:39):
Yeah. You were learning, building the ideas and the culture that you wanted to use in these hotels.

Issy Sharp (00:39:44):
You get an insight into what it is you might want to end up building.

Harley Finkelstein (00:39:49):
So then you decided at some point, okay, this model, this hotel model or motel model, I guess, at that point, works really well. Did you know you were going to build hundreds of them? Did you know that this was going to be a big thing? Or did you say, let me try a second one. Was it still really about the business? Did you think you were onto something at this point? Or was it more just, yeah, let's try a second. How big was the ambition?

Issy Sharp (00:40:10):
No, to me, we were running it, it was successful. I enjoyed that aspect of it once we got started.

Harley Finkelstein (00:40:17):
And you were running the hotel itself?

David Segal (00:40:19):
So you didn't manage it?

Issy Sharp (00:40:20):
I didn't, but I hired somebody.

David Segal (00:40:21):
Oh, okay.

Issy Sharp (00:40:22):
And then hiring, didn't know anything about hiring people.

Harley Finkelstein (00:40:26):
You were ready for trades.

Issy Sharp (00:40:27):
I'm a two man construction, my dad and myself. So there was a new hotel opened in Toronto. I think it might have been the called the Westbury, and it was the new hotels. So I went and spoke to the general manager of that hotel. And I said, "Look, I'm building something here. I'm not coming to you to see whether you'd like to join me, but do you know anybody I might speak to in the hotel business to hire as a general manager?" And he said, "Yeah, I've got a friend who just came over from England and he's running this little place. And you might talk to him."

(00:41:07):
So I did. And when I went in, met this man, his name was Ian Monroe. And he was dressed in a very formal, almost like a morning suit. He was going to a wedding or something. So I talked to him what I'm tending to do, "Do you think you'd like to maybe run this hotel for us?" And he gave me his list of things he had done, and we had a nice, charming conversation. So I hired him. Now, I don't know how to interview people and how to hire people. I'm still-

Harley Finkelstein (00:41:41):
You're a construction guy.

Issy Sharp (00:41:42):
Yeah, I'm a construction guy. 25 years old.

Harley Finkelstein (00:41:45):
He seemed like a nice guy.

Issy Sharp (00:41:46):
Yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (00:41:46):
Well dressed.

Issy Sharp (00:41:47):
Exactly. Yeah. He made some jokes and talked about what he did before. And I said, "Okay, but I have one condition. I never want to see you wear that suit in the hotel. I'm thinking of a place that we welcome people feeling casual." And so we joined forces and became very good friends. And he taught me the hotel business. He was gregarious. He knew food and beverage. He was charming, and he understood. I said, "Ian, I want to make sure that whoever comes in that door, they're a guest. I don't want to judge people by what they wear and who they are. If they're willing to walk in and want a room, hey, unless you know the guy is a criminal or something." So he understood. I said, "They're our guests and treat them as we are the host." So he understood me trying to articulate what Four Seasons has become. But he understood it because he was that kind of person, charming, able to. So he hired the people with that basic principle of we treat everybody with respect, welcome them, and that became the beginning.

Harley Finkelstein (00:43:14):
So that DNA of, Ian is his name?

Issy Sharp (00:43:17):
Ian Monroe.

Harley Finkelstein (00:43:17):
Ian Monroe. So is it safe to say that the Ian Monroe sort of DNA, that Ian Monroe thoughtfulness about hospitality, food and beverage, welcoming people in an incredibly kind way. Is that the blueprint for effectively hospitality?

David Segal (00:43:34):
Or the golden rule.

Harley Finkelstein (00:43:35):
Or is that the blueprint for the golden rule?

Issy Sharp (00:43:37):
That's not what caused or became the golden rule, but just the principle of treating people as you would if you're having a guest to your home. You welcome them. You want to make sure they're having a good evening. So his expertise was food. He really was a foodie, big staunch. He looked like one. He liked food.

Harley Finkelstein (00:44:01):
Yeah.

Issy Sharp (00:44:04):
So that was the beginning without being able to articulate what we wanted to become. Because remember, I was not thinking of going into the hotel business.

David Segal (00:44:15):
This is real estate.

Issy Sharp (00:44:16):
It was still a real estate deal. I would sell it. Luckily, unfortunately, it became very successful out of the gate. So I could pay back all the people I had promised. And it worked.

Harley Finkelstein (00:44:33):
And some of them didn't want the money back. They wanted to keep the equity.

Issy Sharp (00:44:36):
Well, no, they didn't have equity.

Harley Finkelstein (00:44:38):
It was all loan.

Issy Sharp (00:44:39):
When I said, I'll pay you, it was on a handshake.

Harley Finkelstein (00:44:43):
Oh, you mean the trades.

Issy Sharp (00:44:43):
The trades.

David Segal (00:44:44):
The trades. Yeah. Yeah.

Issy Sharp (00:44:46):
The trades who allowed me to take, I think I made 25% of their contract and deferred. So that was just on a handshake.

David Segal (00:44:56):
Right. Talk about credibility afterwards.

Issy Sharp (00:44:59):
Well, at that time, construction was very much like that. You wrote a contract, or you didn't even write a contract.

David Segal (00:45:06):
Handshake deal.

Issy Sharp (00:45:07):
Plaster said, look, I'll do the job. It'll be X.

David Segal (00:45:09):
Your word is your bond.

Issy Sharp (00:45:10):
Your word is your bond. So it worked. And then I got interested in this thing. We didn't have to sell it because it was generating some cash. So I looked at this other opportunity of what was called the Inn on the Park. And it was the same principle of the downtown hotel. But I thought we could do this on a grand scale to make it truly like a resort. Because Four Seasons on Jarvis Street was like an oasis. The interior courtyard was like a resort, swimming pool, gardens. It wasn't big, but it was a charming atmosphere.

Harley Finkelstein (00:45:58):
Especially relative to the location. You walk through these doors and it was a whole different world.

Issy Sharp (00:46:03):
Oh yeah.

David Segal (00:46:04):
But the second one, I mean, your wife tells a funny story where you wanted to do this on a bigger scale, but you walk out to effectively a field in the middle of the suburbs. Nobody was building quality hotels in the suburbs at this point.

Issy Sharp (00:46:17):
No. Well, again, I was thinking of it as a resort, that this is in the outskirts of the city, but it's still 10, 15 minutes from downtown as a drive. But the atmosphere that you could create, because we had 20 acres of land. And on that you could really do something. And luckily, the company that I hired to do the first was a company called Peter Dickinson, who was Canada's foremost architect at that time. And we were friends. So I don't know how I met him, but we were casual friends. So I couldn't pay him his fees. I said, "Look, Peter, I just need you to draw the drawings to get a permit. I don't need specifications. I don't need your fancy follow up. Just a sketch and plans to get a building permit." So he said, "Okay, I'll do it for you." And he put a kid in charge called Peter Webb, who was the young architect working in the office. And he designed this magnificent Four Seasons Motor hotel.

(00:47:24):
So now I'm building the other one. I'm talking of now doing something grander and hiring Dickinson again. His office comes and shows me some plans. And I said, "This is not a resort. This is like tower. You're building, these could be downtown Toronto. This is just three towers." So I call Peter up and find out he's in the hospital. And I go visit him in the hospital. I say, "Look, Peter, your office has done something. This is not what I'm talking about. I want something that's going to be spectacular, something that I know is going to, if it works, we can make it much bigger. So we could add on." So he said, "Leave it with me." Now, I didn't know then, and nobody talked about cancer, but he had cancer, lying in the hospital. So he sketched out, came back a few days later, he said, come back.

(00:48:27):
He gives me a call and he shows me this sketch on this big legal size pad, yellow pad, beautiful perspective drawing of what the Inn in the Park looked like when we built it. Exactly. He said, "Look, this is not my idea. I'm taking a Frank Lloyd Wright concept and creating an angular building that if you say you want to add on to it, you can add on and it won't look like an addition." So it was spectacular. I said, "Peter, that's it."

(00:49:01):
So his sketch is what became the Inn on the Park. And he died shortly thereafter. So before he even got started, I'm stuck. And his office is disbanding. So I called Peter Webb and I said, "Peter, you got to finish this. How can I do your vision?" He said, "I got to find a job." I said, "The office is closed. And they said, I have no money." I said, "Look, why don't you, and you had two guys in the office. Why don't you guys rent an office? I'll pay you on a weekly basis so you'll be able to pay the rent and do this job. So you'll do this building for me."

Harley Finkelstein (00:49:48):
So also they have one client, which is you. Right.

Issy Sharp (00:49:52):
That's right. That's all they needed, because I would pay them. And in the meantime, you could look for a job if you want to. So they did. So Peter and Boris Zerafa and Renie Menkes, three kids who worked in Peter Dickinson's office rented room above a store. Their drafting table was a door on trestles. They didn't have any money to buy equipment. They have become Webb Zerafa Menkes, one of the world's foremost architects. Because after that, they did another job for me. And then they opened their own firm. So the Peter Dickinson office transformed into Webb Zerafa Menkes Housden, to become Canada's foremost architects.

Harley Finkelstein (00:50:49):
And partially what I think you saw with them, which I think is fairly, if you look at your story, your ability to spot talent is quite amazing. It's remarkable. But your ability to actually invest in talent that other people don't see, I think, is really what makes the story so special. And David and I think a lot of it in our own businesses, how to spot talent that frankly no one else sees. And then how to invest in them and how to give them all the tools they need to become the best at what they do, world class at what they do.

(00:51:22):
That seems to be a theme across everything you've done, whether it's with your wife, finding someone who is going to be the foundation for a relationship and a family, or it's your team at Four Seasons. You now have your second hotel, and now you're beginning to think a little bit bigger, about many more hotels. You take off to Japan. You look at a portfolio of hotels. At this point, now that the second hotel is built, are you ready to make the Four Seasons this great global phenomenon? Is that the time where you're like, okay, this is way bigger than anything I could have ever imagined?

Issy Sharp (00:51:59):
No. No, because at this point, we had two hotels. And I was still trying to make a living building apartments and houses. So the hotels were generating cash. They were very successful, which needed to be because-

Harley Finkelstein (00:52:15):
Otherwise, there's nothing.

Issy Sharp (00:52:16):
The second hotel was also done the same way as the first hotel.

Harley Finkelstein (00:52:20):
Trades.

Issy Sharp (00:52:21):
All borrowed money. All borrowed money. As I say, no equity was put in. These partners didn't put any more equity, and I didn't have any equity. So everything is borrowed because I went to the bank and said, and the Four Seasons downtown was a gem. Everybody talked about it. It made you more important than you are. This was, everybody talked about it. Most successful little Motor Inn downtown. So when I went to the bank who had lent us a little money on the first hotel, I'd go down to this fancy, huge office building going into one of the major senior people of the bank of Nova Scotia, Cliff Ashe.

(00:53:15):
And I'm there, and I walk into an office twice the size of this room, and he says, "So what can I do for you?" He's quick. I said, "Well, I'd like to borrow some money because I've got this idea to build another hotel, and this is what it's about." He says, "So how much do you need?" And I'm choking because I don't know how to borrow money. I say, "Well, $600,000 just out of the blue." He said, "Okay." So I say, "That's it?" He said, "If that's what you need, okay." I'm in shock. So with that borrowed money and with my trades again, now they believe in me because okay, we'll help you. We build the second hotel. And again, if it doesn't work, you have to throw in the keys. It was a phenomenal success because of Peter Dickinson's architecture.

Harley Finkelstein (00:54:22):
The design was so magnificent.

Issy Sharp (00:54:24):
It was dramatic. I mean, you could not want to go in. If you drove by, you say, we got to go look.

Harley Finkelstein (00:54:30):
We got to see what that is. And there's nothing else like it anywhere, right?

Issy Sharp (00:54:35):
It was, when I look at it now, like the photograph of it, I say, how in the world did I do that? But then you tell an architect, you need something that's going to bring people to you.

David Segal (00:54:50):
Right.

Harley Finkelstein (00:54:50):
It's like a magnet. Yeah.

Issy Sharp (00:54:51):
Well, you guys have done the same. If you hire the right talent and you give them the freedom to express what their talent is all about, they do things out of the box. So Peter Dickinson's design was a magnet, and Ian Monroe in managing as a host did spectacular things in terms of the guest experience. But that was it.

Harley Finkelstein (00:55:22):
Two hotels.

David Segal (00:55:23):
But hold on.

Harley Finkelstein (00:55:24):
Good business.

David Segal (00:55:24):
I mean, you say at that point, it was just about you're making money in these hotels. You're still in the construction business. That's a nice, right? But I believe the third one, it was London, England, right?

Issy Sharp (00:55:34):
The third was London, England.

David Segal (00:55:35):
I mean, that's a big jump. That's a chutzpah moment. I mean, here you are. You got, okay, it's Toronto.

Harley Finkelstein (00:55:41):
Well, you have one in downtown Toronto. You have one in the suburbs. Now you're thinking London, England. That seems like a fairly large jump in terms of ambition and scale.

David Segal (00:55:50):
I mean, now you're big. I mean, London, England.

Harley Finkelstein (00:55:51):
Now you're a big shot.

David Segal (00:55:51):
Yeah. Now you're a big shot.

Issy Sharp (00:55:54):
Well, after we built Inn in the Park, and now I'm into a little money, so now I'm not struggling as much. And we could afford, and we had never taken a vacation, Rosalie and I. So we've married in '55, and the hotel opened in '63. So for that length of time, the only vacation we ever took was five years after we were married, we went for a weekend in Niagara Falls. And remember, we're struggling. Rosalie makes her own clothes. She's frugal with the little money that I'm earning, and she never complains. So now we've made a little money. And I said, look, why don't we take a trip? We'll go to Europe. We'll really do it all out, but we'll still do it on a budget. So wherever we go, we'll stay one night in a good hotel to get a really good experience. And the next night, the worst hotel. So we'll average out. So it's good, but nothing in the middle.

Harley Finkelstein (00:56:59):
Was this a business trip or is this a vacation?

Issy Sharp (00:57:01):
Vacation.

Harley Finkelstein (00:57:02):
It was.

Issy Sharp (00:57:03):
This is just going-

Harley Finkelstein (00:57:03):
But you still want to experiment with different types of hotels there.

Issy Sharp (00:57:06):
Well, yeah, but no, I wanted to make sure we could afford a budget.

Harley Finkelstein (00:57:10):
So it was for budget reasons.

Issy Sharp (00:57:11):
Budget reasons. We wanted to go to London and experience visiting London. So while in London, we stayed at the Dorchester Hotel one night, and I'm blown away. If I thought what we did was special, I said, we're in the minor leagues. This is class, the Dorchester Hotel in London.

Harley Finkelstein (00:57:33):
Yeah, tuxedos, valet parking, white linen.

Issy Sharp (00:57:37):
We were in awe. And then we did that going through London, Paris, Italy, and then Israel. So we spent one night in each of these cities. In Paris, we spent one night in the George Sanc. So it was a great experience of how two kids are traveling through Europe. Remember, we have never traveled, we've never been anywhere.

Harley Finkelstein (00:58:06):
And you're in your 20s at this point still?

Issy Sharp (00:58:07):
Yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (00:58:07):
Early 30s?

Issy Sharp (00:58:08):
Well, this is now I'm 31 or two. And Rosalie never traveled. She never took a vacation as a kid growing up. So we come back and things are good again. And I happened to mention to a friend who was in the construction business. We were talking, I said, "I had this great experience, just came in the hotel that I just can't get out of my mind is the Dorchester Hotel." So he said, "My company owns that hotel." I said, "Really?" He said, "Yeah, the MacAlpines, they own that hotel." I said, "Well, you tell your people if they ever want to build a nicer hotel, I can do it for them."

(00:58:52):
Like a joke. A little while later, he comes back to me, he said, "Were you serious about wanting to build a hotel in London?" I said, "Well, sure, why not?" So he said, "My people would like to talk to you. They have a project they've been trying to get off the ground. That became the beginning of, again, another five year journey of negotiating to get the London Hotel, make it a Four Season, or at that time, the Inn in the Park.

Harley Finkelstein (00:59:25):
Wow.

Issy Sharp (00:59:27):
And that experience, getting that hotel, building that hotel, caused me to think, I'm going to change my career direction. I'm still going to build, but I'm going to focus my attention on building hotels. So London became the prototype and the catalyst that changed me to try to become a hotelier.

Harley Finkelstein (00:59:58):
And it all happened because you made a random remark to a friend of yours that you can build something better than the Dorchester Hotel. And that particular friend came back to you and said, go do it.

Issy Sharp (01:00:11):
Yeah. So that hotel in its first year was voted the best hotel in Europe. So we did build a better hotel than the Dorchester.

Harley Finkelstein (01:00:23):
And that was called the Four Seasons?

Issy Sharp (01:00:24):
No, at that time it was called the Inn on the Park.

Harley Finkelstein (01:00:26):
Okay.

Issy Sharp (01:00:27):
At the Inn on the Park.

Harley Finkelstein (01:00:28):
You had that from Toronto.

David Segal (01:00:29):
It was the Toronto one. Yeah. Yeah.

Issy Sharp (01:00:30):
Well, because that was the name, because everybody talked about the Inn on the Park. And that experience was probably one of the most enlightening, enjoyable experience of my life.

David Segal (01:00:45):
Is that the moment where you're like, I made it?

Issy Sharp (01:00:49):
I've never ever thought that. That doesn't seem to come in my way of thinking. It's just that I enjoyed it and enjoyed the people and the challenge. Because, like everything else, it was a huge gamble.

David Segal (01:01:05):
That seems to be the common answer amongst a lot of our guests. Aldo we had on as well. He said the exact same thing. He's like, we asked him, when did you really think you made it? And he's like, I still don't think I've made it.

Issy Sharp (01:01:18):
Yeah, no, it doesn't come into my way of thinking. But the experience there was just a growing up experience, of dealing with people who were next to royalty. These were Europe. These are-

Harley Finkelstein (01:01:37):
Socialites.

Issy Sharp (01:01:39):
History in the making. A family, MacAlpine family, one of the largest industrialists in Europe. So my meeting these people and being welcomed and treated politely was really a great learning experience.

David Segal (01:02:02):
And let's face it, I mean, you're a Jew going to see the McAlpines, who I'm assuming are old money. And this is not in, I mean, we're talking the '60s, right? In the '70s, yeah.

Issy Sharp (01:02:12):
Issy is a Jewish. Everybody knows who you are.

Harley Finkelstein (01:02:19):
It's Finklestein or Siegel.

Issy Sharp (01:02:20):
What you look like. You're introduced. I've never gone by my name Isador, because that's the way you grow up. People call you Wizzy or Issy. My aunt used to call me Isador because her son was also called Issy.

Harley Finkelstein (01:02:40):
So that was her way of differentiating.

Issy Sharp (01:02:43):
Yeah. So that really was the catalyst. And from that point forward, I focused on trying to build more hotels.

Harley Finkelstein (01:02:50):
So if you loved part one of the Issy Sharp episode, stay tuned for part two. It is a banger.