Ed Sonshine: From Displaced Persons Camp To a Multi-Billion Dollar Real Estate Empire

Harley Finkelstein (00:00:00):
So, you and I met in 2015 or so, right?

David Segal (00:00:03):
Yep.

Harley Finkelstein (00:00:03):
Something like that? And we connected on a bunch of different things together. Obviously entrepreneurship, family, Jewish connection, all that. You had just left DavidsTea at that point. Shopify, I think, was pre-IPO, or maybe we'd just gone public at that point. And actually you started working out of a little space in Shopify for a while, right?

David Segal (00:00:21):
A little bit, yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (00:00:22):
And so, you'd come in, we'd talk, but there was sort of this one centerpiece of interest that we always had, which was, for some reason, we were both fascinated with real estate.

David Segal (00:00:31):
We did our first deal together that year.

Harley Finkelstein (00:00:33):
We did. We found someone who owned an apartment building that was looking for a partner, and you and I ended up investing in this apartment building. And since then we've been investing-

David Segal (00:00:40):
Right. It's been a great deal.

Harley Finkelstein (00:00:41):
It's been a great deal. And since then, we've invested in a dozen or so apartment buildings together. I don't know why we've always been so fascinated with real estate, but we have, and maybe it's because growing up, our parents, our grandparents, no one ever owned real estate in our family. It's sort of a high barrier to entry in the way that my first t-shirt business had a very low barrier to entry. Real estate's kind of the opposite.

David Segal (00:01:02):
Well, and at DavidsTea, I mean, I leased stores, right?

Harley Finkelstein (00:01:02):
That's right.

David Segal (00:01:03):
So, I met a lot of landlords and I saw how well they did.

Harley Finkelstein (00:01:06):
You saw, and we were always fascinated by it. But every time we talk about real estate, we would always hear about this company called RioCan.

David Segal (00:01:14):
I mean, they're massive.

Harley Finkelstein (00:01:16):
And they're not only one of the largest real estate companies in North America, but they sort of reinvented the model, right?

David Segal (00:01:24):
Yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (00:01:25):
They were the first company, the first fund to ever bring the real estate investment trust, also known as a REIT, to Canada.

David Segal (00:01:31):
As well as these open air centers and it's retail, industrial, office.

Harley Finkelstein (00:01:36):
All in one place. You see these big parking lots where there's a Walmart and there's big box stores and there's restaurants and all that stuff also. And so, I think you and I have known RioCan for a very long time. And because of that, we've known the name Eddie Sonshine. We never met him, had never even encountered him before.

David Segal (00:01:53):
What a story, though.

Harley Finkelstein (00:01:55):
But we've been fascinated by his story and the RioCan story for a long time. And then a couple weeks ago, as we were thinking about our next guest for Big Shot, we began to ask our network of people, "Who should we have on the show?" And everyone kept saying, "You got to talk to Eddie Sonshine."

(00:02:12):
And Eddie's Sonshine, of course, as I mentioned, is well known as being the founder and the person that grew RioCan to be a $15 billion real estate fund. But remember, Eddie Sonshine was born, in fact, lived for the first three years of his life-

David Segal (00:02:26):
Right. In a displaced person camp.

Harley Finkelstein (00:02:28):
... in a displacement camp that used to be a concentration camp in Germany.

David Segal (00:02:33):
Yeah. Right. And for people who don't know, a displacement camp is after the war, after the Holocaust, they needed a place to put these Jews who had survived. So, they stayed in these camps that weren't concentration camps, but they weren't exactly the Four Seasons Hotel.

Harley Finkelstein (00:02:43):
I mean, it was a tough place there. And not just that. His father, to make money in the displacement camps-

David Segal (00:02:49):
Right. Yeah. He was a smuggler.

Harley Finkelstein (00:02:50):
... he was a smuggler and he was able to make some money. And then eventually his mom and dad immigrate to Canada. They have no money. They don't speak the language.

David Segal (00:02:58):
They have no family.

Harley Finkelstein (00:02:58):
They've no family.

David Segal (00:02:58):
They've lost their entire family.

Harley Finkelstein (00:02:59):
Everyone has killed in the Holocaust.

David Segal (00:03:01):
They were the only surviving children. Yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (00:03:02):
And they come to Canada and they move to London, Ontario. They don't speak the language. Again, they know nothing about this culture here. No education. And Eddie goes on, goes to law school, gets into real estate, and builds this freaking empire. And as he's thinking about retirement, after building this iconic company and becoming this titan of real estate, he begins to start thinking about what his next stage is. And so, he wants to get advice. And so, he reads books about philosophy, and he speaks to his mentors and advisors, and he seeks counsel from rabbis.

David Segal (00:03:38):
Right. And he's not a religious guy.

Harley Finkelstein (00:03:39):
He's not a religious guy. So, he's getting all this information about what is next in his life. And he's wondering what are they going to tell him? And then he tells us what they say. And it was just this mind-blowing idea-

David Segal (00:03:47):
Totally.

Harley Finkelstein (00:03:48):
... which, although, it was so simple-

David Segal (00:03:50):
Yeah. It's not what you would think.

Harley Finkelstein (00:03:51):
... it's not what you would think.

David Segal (00:03:52):
No.

Harley Finkelstein (00:03:52):
But it changes the course of his next phase and just I love when he told him story.

David Segal (00:03:58):
I love how well he captures the immigrant story on what these people went through to build these fortunes, including himself and his parents and those around him. And he just really does a great job describing the sacrifices they had to make in order to get where they are today.

Harley Finkelstein (00:04:17):
Yeah. I mean-

David Segal (00:04:17):
And the risks. And the risks that-

Harley Finkelstein (00:04:19):
... I can't wait for people to hear that story. That is going to be so interesting. Those tidbits that we're going to be sharing on this interview, they're going to blow people's minds.

David Segal (00:04:24):
Yeah. Well, what you're going to learn in this interview and you tease this out from them really well, is that Ed Sonshine has an incredible gut feel. And you asked him how do you teach judgment? And I actually think Ed Sonshine just taught us about judgment and how you make judgment, how you make [inaudible 00:04:39].

Harley Finkelstein (00:04:39):
He teaches how to develop that really, really well. And he was generous and he was kind. And man, is he aggressive and ambitious. And this is an incredible conversation.

David Segal (00:04:48):
Great sense of humor, great storytelling-

Harley Finkelstein (00:04:49):
Yeah. I can't wait for you to hear this.

David Segal (00:04:50):
... hell of a character. This is one of amazing guy.

Harley Finkelstein (00:04:50):
This is one of the most ... People are going to be taking notes.

David Segal (00:04:52):
Totally. (singing)

Harley Finkelstein (00:04:53):
Ed Sonshine. Let's do it.

(00:05:11):
Ed, let me read something to you. As of December 31st, 2022, the RioCan portfolio compromises 193 properties with an aggregate net leaseable area of approximately 33.6 million square feet. You have 10 development projects and evaluation of close to $15 billion. What you have built with RioCan is incredible. But before we go there, I want to back up.

Ed Sonshine (00:05:36):
Yeah, we used to be bigger.

Harley Finkelstein (00:05:37):
Used to be bigger. Perfect. We'll get there.

(00:05:40):
You're the son of Holocaust survivors. Born in 1947, I believe, in a displaced person's camp in Germany. Your father was only one of 11 children who survived the Holocaust.

Ed Sonshine (00:05:51):
Correct.

Harley Finkelstein (00:05:52):
Your mother and her two brothers were the only to survive out of 10. Talk to us about the early days of your life. Let's start there.

Ed Sonshine (00:06:01):
Well, I've been asked before. I don't remember Bergen-Belsen at all. We left Bergen-Belsen just, I was almost three. We left in November. My birthday's in January, so I only know sort of a little of what my father and mother told me. Although we did go back to visit Bergen-Belsen. I've actually been there twice and-

Harley Finkelstein (00:06:26):
What was that like?

Ed Sonshine (00:06:27):
Well, I went to see the hospital where I was born. There was a hospital. It was because it was in the British Zone, and they built a hospital. It was General Sir Dr. Glyn Hughes Hospital. But it was all shot up. The whole area, it's still a NATO base. And it was being used to teach urban warfare. So, we're going through this hospital and some guide, there's a Bergen-Belsen Foundation, and he was guiding us around and we were walking on cartridges everywhere.

Harley Finkelstein (00:06:57):
Crazy!

Ed Sonshine (00:06:57):
And he takes me to a room." He says, "This is where you were born." I said, "How do you know?" He said, "We have records."

Speaker X (00:07:01):
Wow.

Ed Sonshine (00:07:01):
I said, "Okay." But we basically, they were Wehrmacht Barracks because the concentration camp, there was a concentration camp at Bergen-Belsen-

Harley Finkelstein (00:07:09):
Of course.

Ed Sonshine (00:07:10):
... but when the British liberated it, it was rife with cholera and other diseases. So, they took whatever Jews survived, and they burned the camp down. And then they housed them and others that came in what were the Wehrmacht Barracks. So, my home for the first almost three years of my life was basically a little sort of curtained off area in a barracks. But that's the way everybody else lived. And my father says, "You know, it wasn't a bad life." At its high point, Bergen-Belsen is a story I actually paid for a movie to be made about it. But the tax deduction was good, the movie wasn't.

(00:07:50):
But at its height, it had 10,000 Jews. And in it only lasted for three years. I mean, there's a lesson in here for some people. And three years, three-and-a-half years after it was started, it was empty. Everybody had left because they call them displaced persons. They were refugees. They were displaced. I know my two uncles that survived, they tried to go back to Poland. They were almost killed. There were killings of Jews in Poland and other countries after the war. So, they literally couldn't go back. But you couldn't get papers to go anywhere. So, people stayed in camp. And it ended up very roughly about a third ended up going to Israel, about a third, maybe a little, maybe 40% went to North America, mostly America, but some ... Canada was the hardest to get into. And then a bunch went to Australia as well.

(00:08:47):
But we ended up going to Canada because we couldn't get papers for Australia or for the United States. And my mother found a long lost cousin in London, Ontario. And so, I have, believe it or not, a vague recollection, we came by boat over the North Atlantic. My father tells me, he and I used to take walks around, or told me, boat all day. My mother spent seven days sick in the cabin seasick. And we landed in Pier 21 at Halifax, took a train to London. And the only story I really got, my father at my daughter's bat mitzvah, he'd never told me the story." He said, "When we landed in Halifax," the thing was he had a little baby. I was almost three. "I had to have milk, but there was no milk or fresh milk on the ship." So, his first thing was to go to a store just off the docks and buy me some milk. And he realized several things when he went into the store.

Harley Finkelstein (00:09:45):
He had no money.

Ed Sonshine (00:09:46):
Number one, he didn't have any money. Number two, he didn't have any English, and he couldn't buy the milk. So, he said he sat down on the stoop of the store. And first time since 1939, when his family ... He says, "The first and only time I cried." He said, "What have I done?"

Harley Finkelstein (00:10:08):
He felt helpless.

Ed Sonshine (00:10:09):
He felt helpless and he figures he's made a big mistake because he was doing okay in Bergen-Belsen. He had a business going. He was doing okay. I mean, the truth is-

David Segal (00:10:17):
What kind of business did he have in the camp?

Ed Sonshine (00:10:19):
Smuggling.

David Segal (00:10:20):
Smuggling.

Ed Sonshine (00:10:20):
Basically. He had a truck. He would go once a week or so to Switzerland. Wasn't that far. He'd buy vodka, chocolates, stuff like that. And then you go into the Russian zone and the Russians, I see from the news in Ukraine, nothing's changed. The Russians were the world's best looters. And so, they would loot all the German homes. You could trade vodka, chocolates, nylon stockings, whatever my father had, for silverware, jewelry, stuff. And then you take that extra and you sell it in Switzerland. And so, basically, and-

David Segal (00:11:02):
He's a merchant.

Ed Sonshine (00:11:04):
Yeah. I mean, it was all ... So, smuggling, got arrested a couple of times, but after the war nobody worried about getting arrested. And so, he brought some money with him, but in diamonds. He didn't have any Canadian cash.

David Segal (00:11:18):
Diamonds were small, easy to carry. Easy to transport.

Ed Sonshine (00:11:19):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. They were in the heel of his boot, actually.

David Segal (00:11:21):
Heel of his boot.

Ed Sonshine (00:11:23):
And so, we were able, when we came to Canada, life for me anyway, was okay. We bought a house within a year after we arrived on Markham Street, which now is a very cool street but-

David Segal (00:11:34):
Just with the diamonds or he took-

Ed Sonshine (00:11:36):
Yeah, yeah. He had $17,000 in diamonds. The house cost $6,000 in 1950.

David Segal (00:11:40):
Wow. Something that came out while we were doing our research about you was that what had a major impact was the fact that your parents had every reason to see themselves as victims. I mean, they lost their entire families. And yet here they are, they arrive in this new country and they didn't. They moved forward and they ... Yeah, talk ... What was that like?

Ed Sonshine (00:12:03):
It's actually quite amazing. I mean, my father never really talked about the Holocaust til he was much, much older, til he was probably in his seventies. Then he started talking about it. Just, it's like it didn't happen. My mother, the odd time I'd say, "How do you know Abe Leeman?" "Oh, we were in camp together." I said, "Camp?" She says, "You don't want to go to that camp, Eddie."

David Segal (00:12:26):
Wasn't a Jewish summer camp.

Ed Sonshine (00:12:29):
No. No.

Harley Finkelstein (00:12:29):
That's right.

Ed Sonshine (00:12:30):
And they were just determined. I mean, I'll go back to Bergen-Belsen for a moment. And I mentioned there were 10,000 Jews there. In the period of less than three years, there were 2,000 babies born. So, think about these people. They'd come out of the worst thing that had ever been done to a people in history and their first drive was-

David Segal (00:12:56):
Start again.

Ed Sonshine (00:12:56):
... get married-

Harley Finkelstein (00:12:57):
Populate. Yeah.

Ed Sonshine (00:12:58):
... and populate again, and start again. And 2,000 babies.

Harley Finkelstein (00:13:01):
It's amazing. I mean, it kind of defies gravity almost that they would do that, especially because you would think their spirits were so crushed. The idea of creating a family would be out of the question.

Ed Sonshine (00:13:12):
Right.

David Segal (00:13:12):
How do you find joy in those moments?

Ed Sonshine (00:13:14):
Well, they just determined it.

David Segal (00:13:15):
The did it, just did it.

Ed Sonshine (00:13:16):
And when we came here, nobody ever thought of the ... I mean, they were victims, but they didn't dwell on it. And I'd say, but the only, besides being spokesman, which made me ... I've become very talkative, but I didn't know till I was about 12 years old. And I'll come back to why that people actually had parents who didn't have an accent. I didn't know anybody because the people that came, the survivors that came after the war, they didn't trust anybody. They may not have been victims, but they weren't very trusting people because they had reason. So, they stuck together.

Harley Finkelstein (00:13:54):
So, they were very insular from a community [inaudible 00:13:56].

Ed Sonshine (00:13:56):
Very insular from the rest of the Jewish community here.

Harley Finkelstein (00:13:58):
Wow!

Ed Sonshine (00:13:58):
There was a real divide.

David Segal (00:14:00):
There's a divide, if you were immigrant Jew versus one that had been born-

Ed Sonshine (00:14:02):
A post-war Jew, pre-war Jew. Totally different.

David Segal (00:14:06):
Right. The Rothmans are here, Sonshines are here.

Ed Sonshine (00:14:07):
Yeah. Sharps are here. Sonshines are here. But that generation, I mean, they were unique. My parents' generation and your grandparents, I guess. They were unique in so many ways. First of all, what they went through. Secondly, that they just started over.

Harley Finkelstein (00:14:27):
That's right.

Ed Sonshine (00:14:28):
And by and large, I mean, obviously some were more successful than others, but they all had families. They all had businesses.

Harley Finkelstein (00:14:38):
Some big or some small, but they were ambitious. I mean, part of what we-

Ed Sonshine (00:14:42):
They're very ambitious.

Harley Finkelstein (00:14:42):
Well, part of what we find so fascinating, part of the reason that Big Shot came about was to archive the stories of ... I mean, we're calling it Jewish entrepreneurship, but we're really talking about Jewish prosperity and this inherent desire to be successful.

(00:14:56):
Why did you go to law school?

Ed Sonshine (00:14:58):
I wanted to be Perry Mason. No. That probably means nothing to you.

David Segal (00:15:03):
No. We know who is Perry Mason, yeah and so does our audience who was alive.

Ed Sonshine (00:15:05):
And Perry Mason was a TV show and Raymond Burr was the star. It was on Sunday night before The Ed Sullivan Show. In those days, there were three channels plus CBC, which nobody watched even then. And you had ABC, NBC, CBS.

David Segal (00:15:18):
CBS, yeah.

Ed Sonshine (00:15:19):
CBS was the big dog and they had this thing called The Ed Sullivan Show on every Sunday night at 8:00.

Harley Finkelstein (00:15:26):
And everybody watched, right?

Ed Sonshine (00:15:27):
Everybody watched it. I mean, the Beatles made the first North American-

Harley Finkelstein (00:15:30):
Yeah, on The Ed Sullivan Show.

Ed Sonshine (00:15:33):
... appearance on The Ed Sullivan Show in 1960 something. So, everybody's had the same schedule on Sunday evening. I think all of Canada, 6:00 was The Wonderful World of Disney. And at 7:00 was the Perry Mason show. And Perry Mason was a criminal lawyer who won every case, every Sunday night a case got done. And not only did he win the case by getting his client off, but he always exposed who the real criminal, usually killer, was during the courtroom scene. It was great. I loved it. And I wanted to become a criminal lawyer.

Harley Finkelstein (00:16:04):
But, I mean, you were really a lawyer. I mean, I really wasn't a lawyer.

Ed Sonshine (00:16:07):
No, I was ... I [inaudible 00:16:07].

Harley Finkelstein (00:16:07):
I practiced for 10 months. You were a real lawyer.

Ed Sonshine (00:16:09):
Yeah. I was really a lawyer. I took companies public. I did real estate deals. I had some pretty good clients.

Harley Finkelstein (00:16:14):
You're making money, of course.

David Segal (00:16:15):
And you're making all kinds of good money.

Ed Sonshine (00:16:17):
I'm making as much money as the lawyer could make in those days. We had great practice.

David Segal (00:16:20):
Right. And you have a family presumably at this point and-

Ed Sonshine (00:16:22):
Three kids.

David Segal (00:16:23):
Right. And so, what was the catalyst where you're like, "I'm going to go risk it all?"

Ed Sonshine (00:16:28):
Yeah, I did.

David Segal (00:16:29):
And I believe you joined counsel, right, and took over the real estate mutual fund.

Ed Sonshine (00:16:33):
Yeah, I came in right at the bottom. I was president of the real estate entity, which .. What made me do it? Like I always tell people, there are a hundred reasons I left law, but a few of them, probably the two big ones were I ended up, most of my clients, I didn't like them. I just didn't like them. And I didn't like being at their beck and call at a certain point. Call it arrogance, call it whatever you want, negative thing. I decided one day, I said, "I'd like to be the guy that sets the meetings rather than has to show up when you're told."

Harley Finkelstein (00:17:05):
Wow! You were on the wrong side of the table.

Ed Sonshine (00:17:07):
Exactly. And a lot of my clients, I looked at them, I said, "You know, what they're doing, I can do a lot better than they can, at least as good," because I was the guy saving them from their mistakes. And a lot of things went wrong, particularly in the early '80s, that's when interest rates went to 20%. You would think this is high? Woo! Try doing a building a 20% interest.

(00:17:28):
And so, I was busy saving them. And so, there's a whole bunch of reasons like that. And part of it was I was about to turn 40 and I said, "If I stay here another few years, this is it."

Harley Finkelstein (00:17:42):
I'm going to stay here forever. Right. This is what I'm going to end up doing.

Ed Sonshine (00:17:44):
"This is what I'm going to be doing my whole life. And is that really what I want to do?" And I came to the conclusion, no. I went home to my wife. I'd already been married. I got married when I was 21, so I'd already been married then 18, 19 years. We had three kids. We lived nice. We had a house, had cars. Life was good. And I said, "I think I'm going to go into business. I'm going to go work for counsel and I'm stop being a lawyer." She said, "Okay, if that's what you think is right." She's great.

Harley Finkelstein (00:18:12):
Yeah. So, you're new. You leave law, you go into real estate during the worst time ever.

Ed Sonshine (00:18:17):
No, I had two good years.

Harley Finkelstein (00:18:18):
Okay. You had two good years, two years. What are you thinking at this point? You just made this huge decision. You left the law firm. You're managing part of a very prestigious firm.

David Segal (00:18:24):
Right. And to run a fund that's effectively insolvent.

Ed Sonshine (00:18:27):
I'm thinking about going back to law, amongst other things. But I really didn't want to do that. And the CEO and main shareholder of counsel was a guy named Alan Silver. And I said to Alan, I said, "What are we going to do? We got some money now in the company," because we sold the trust company. "What do you got in mind?" He said, "Well, I want to go into the health care business." I said, "Really? What do you know about the health care business?" "No, it's a growing field, Eddie." I said, "Well, I don't want to do that." He said, "What do you want to do?" I said, "Well, I want to stay in the real estate business." And he said, "Well, how you going to do that?" I said, "Well, this little mutual fund, maybe I'll take it and try to reorganize it. I've been reading about these things called REITs in the States, real estate investment trust. They seem like a really good idea to me."

Harley Finkelstein (00:19:18):
And there was no REITs in Canada at this point.

Ed Sonshine (00:19:19):
Zero.

Harley Finkelstein (00:19:20):
Zero.

Ed Sonshine (00:19:21):
And he said, "REITs? Real estate?" He says, "You're nuts. You want to do that, you're on your own." I said, "Okay, I'll do it." And at that point, we became actually in assets 1997 I guess, maybe by the time we closed, it was '98, a billion dollar company.

Harley Finkelstein (00:19:40):
Wow. Amazing.

Ed Sonshine (00:19:41):
And that was part of the compelling story, because in those days, to become a billion dollar company, that was a big deal in Canada and-

David Segal (00:19:50):
It's still a big deal.

Ed Sonshine (00:19:51):
... you were like a real person. And I said, "I think there's a real advantage in size in this business."

Harley Finkelstein (00:20:02):
Because the economy of scale, because of-

Ed Sonshine (00:20:04):
Economy of scale, but also building up your capital base because your capital base is your safety net. My father, he should rest in peace, he died in 1996, so he didn't see a lot of this happen. But in 1994 and when I was just took it public and get it organized, and I was trying to explain to him, and he was pretty unsophisticated. He was a house builder. And he said, "Well, Eddie, can you explain it to me?" So, I'm busy explaining it to him, probably overly technical. But after about 20 minutes, he said to me, "I think I got it, Eddie." He says, "People give you money, you buy real estate with it. You make a living doing that." I go, "Yeah." "And you pay out income to those people, but you never have to give them their money back. They want their money back, they go sell it somewhere."

David Segal (00:20:53):
To somebody else.

Ed Sonshine (00:20:53):
On the stock market." I said, "You got it, dad. You actually got it." He says, "Eddie, this is a good business." When you don't have to give the equity back, this is a good business.

Harley Finkelstein (00:21:03):
And he probably said in that with an accent, right?

Ed Sonshine (00:21:05):
Exactly. "Eddie, this is a good business," and it is a good business. And I realized very quickly, equity capital was the key to real estate and still is.

David Segal (00:21:17):
Ed Jonathan, when we're talking to him [inaudible 00:21:20]-

Harley Finkelstein (00:21:20):
Well, explain who Jonathan is.

David Segal (00:21:21):
Yeah, Jonathan Gitlin, CEO of RioCan and now your successor-

Ed Sonshine (00:21:26):
Two years almost exactly.

David Segal (00:21:27):
Right, who was the head of acquisitions when you went into the US, we were just talking about, and really cut his teeth acquiring all these properties in the US. I called him. I said, "We're interviewing Ed." I said, "What is really his superpower? I mean, what is it that makes him so special and such a titan of industry being able to build this incredible business?" He said, "Ed has a tremendous ability to trust his gut."

Ed Sonshine (00:21:51):
Yes.

Harley Finkelstein (00:21:54):
You have mentored, you've been sigliere to a lot of people. I heard a story that you told once where a client of yours said, "Hey, Eddie, I just closed the deal with Metro Grocery Store in Cornwall. Give the guy a call and go make the deal happen." You call Metro and you say, "Let's get the deal." And the guy says ...

Ed Sonshine (00:22:09):
He just laughed.

Harley Finkelstein (00:22:10):
He just laughed. He said, "We talked about maybe talking about this at one point."

(00:22:14):
So, you have played a role as advisor/mentor to so many people, including your children and your grandchildren. How do you teach judgment?

Ed Sonshine (00:22:25):
I don't know. Part of that speech when they gave me that honorary doctorate, but was, I tell people, you always got to be curious. I'm innately curious about everything. And I said, "You never know what information will be useful." I mean, in medicine, you shouldn't just read medical journals. You got to read everything. I mean, I'm a news junkie, I have to admit. To this day, I mean, whether it's on TV, it's on my phone. I still get newspapers, actual paper. My kids think I'm nuts, but it's very good for making fires up at the cottage and so that they forgive me. But I think you have to be insatiably curious about what's going on everywhere in the world.

Harley Finkelstein (00:23:14):
How do you stay curious?

Ed Sonshine (00:23:15):
Pardon?

Harley Finkelstein (00:23:15):
How do you stay curious? How do you continue that curiosity?

Ed Sonshine (00:23:18):
I don't know. I just am.

David Segal (00:23:18):
It's just who you are.

Ed Sonshine (00:23:19):
You know what? I also think you never should stop learning. It's like nobody ever knows enough.

Harley Finkelstein (00:23:27):
So, that's actually interesting because the next area I want to start to talk about is you retired a couple years ago.

Ed Sonshine (00:23:32):
I did.

Harley Finkelstein (00:23:32):
Two years ago, I believe.

Ed Sonshine (00:23:33):
Almost. Exactly.

Harley Finkelstein (00:23:34):
Almost exactly. That's a big deal for you.

Ed Sonshine (00:23:37):
Arguably a year late.

David Segal (00:23:38):
Okay. But you got these two new companies. You got AWS and Chesswood?

Ed Sonshine (00:23:41):
Well, yeah. Chesswood I've been involved in for years, but about seven or eight years ago, I walked away and I actually went right off the board.

Harley Finkelstein (00:23:49):
What's Chesswood?

Ed Sonshine (00:23:50):
Chesswood's an alternative lender. Basically not cars, but although we went back in the car business. So, we started in the car business a long time ago. And mainly in the United States, although now it's about 60% American, 40% Canadian. We got about a book of two-and-a-half billion dollars of average ticket size, $75,000.

Harley Finkelstein (00:24:12):
Wow.

Ed Sonshine (00:24:13):
So, small alternative lender, high risk, high interest rates. We get a three, 4% default rate. That's good.

Harley Finkelstein (00:24:21):
Very, very good. Yeah. Okay. So, you're not really, I mean, you're retired somewhat, but how did you think about retiring and why did you decide to do this?

David Segal (00:24:28):
He's retired. The meeting went from 7:00 to 7:30.

Harley Finkelstein (00:24:30):
That's right. Yeah. [inaudible 00:24:32]. Yeah.

Ed Sonshine (00:24:32):
Now, I'd never want to do nothing, okay? Fortunately, my father, and again, you learn lessons by watching and learning, I think.

Harley Finkelstein (00:24:40):
Sure.

Ed Sonshine (00:24:41):
How do you teach instinct? You teach judgment. You get people to watch and pay attention. But my father had, if there's such a thing, a small stroke in his early sixties. And in those days the doctor said, "Oh, it's from stress, Mr. Sonshine. You got to retire."

(00:24:59):
So, what did that mean to him? He retired. Sold off whatever land he had left that he was ready to build houses, sold. He built a couple of commercial properties. He kept one. He said, "Eddie, I got to have somewhere to go to collect rent to do something." And he really retired. Within three years, he was seriously depressed because he actually said to me, he says, "You know, I'm good for nothing." They had a place in Florida. I said, "You're going on to Florida?" "No." I said, "What do you mean, you're not going to Florida? You're going to Florida the last five years. You're going to stop going?" I said, "No." He says, "Florida's for people to take a vacation at work." I mean, this is how depressed he is. "I don't work. I don't deserve a vacation." "How can you deserve a vacation?"

(00:25:44):
And he got more ... He really, ultimately, I think it just finished him off. So, that was firsthand. And then just myself. I always like to be busy. It doesn't mean I don't like to take four hours off and go play golf or-

Harley Finkelstein (00:26:00):
Right, or go to the cottage.

Ed Sonshine (00:26:01):
... go to the cottage this summer.

David Segal (00:26:02):
Well, the cottage is another topic we're supposed to cover. Apparently you were not always a cottage lover.

Ed Sonshine (00:26:06):
[inaudible 00:26:07] cottage.

Harley Finkelstein (00:26:07):
You weren't a cottage guy.

Ed Sonshine (00:26:08):
I'll come back to that. Retirement full time, and I see some of my friends. I don't want to name names-

Harley Finkelstein (00:26:13):
Yeah. Sure.

Ed Sonshine (00:26:13):
... but they get stupid when they're really retired. Now, most of them, they had a business, they sold it. And now literally they have nothing to do. These are guys who every morning left their house 7:00, 7:00, whenever they left, 7:30 and they go and be trying to make money doing this running. And suddenly, "Oh, you want me to go pick up a challah? That's what I'm doing today?"

Harley Finkelstein (00:26:42):
I get it.

Ed Sonshine (00:26:42):
Yeah. "I'll go pick up one of the grandchildren from school. That's my job?"

Harley Finkelstein (00:26:46):
Yeah. I mean, this is sort of a mutual club in that way because Dave and I feel the same way.

David Segal (00:26:52):
I mean, [inaudible 00:26:53] heart attack.

Harley Finkelstein (00:26:53):
We don't watch football on Sundays. We create podcasts with interesting people. I mean, our lives are filled with interesting things to do.

David Segal (00:27:00):
But as is a good segue, family is extremely important to us. And how difficult it is to maintain, call it harmony, call it balance with your kids, your wife, and still build this business that is not, let's face it, 8:00 to 5:00. It's 24/7, right? So, how do you-

Ed Sonshine (00:27:18):
When I was your age, the phrase work-life balance did not exist.

David Segal (00:27:21):
Not a thing. Right. And yet, one of the things Jonathan pointed out is that you've done such an amazing job, establishing strong relationships with both your kids and your grandkids. And you're very close with all of them. How are you able to do that and still build RioCan?

Ed Sonshine (00:27:39):
Well-

Harley Finkelstein (00:27:40):
How do we do that? How do we do it?

David Segal (00:27:42):
[inaudible 00:27:42] we do it? Yeah.

Ed Sonshine (00:27:43):
Honestly, you have to have a great spouse and then you have to take certain times. Once one of my grandkids asked me, he said, "Zayde, you got any regrets?" I said, "I never have regrets." He asked me deals. "I just don't. No point in looking backwards. Whatever happened, happened, now move on." I think I learned that from my parents. Yeah. Never look back.

(00:28:12):
And I said, "I don't have regrets," but nah, I pretended to have a regret. I said, "But if I had to do it over again, maybe I would've spent a little more time with you guys when you were little, with my kids, your parents." And my son Daniel, who is a very successful young man. He's not so young. He's 48. And he turned to me and says, "You spent enough time with us, dad. It was okay." That's Daniel. His wife thinks he and I share a brain.

(00:28:42):
But anyway, you know what? I did manage, as busy as I was, I knew I needed a break just for me and for my family. So, at Christmas time, didn't matter what else was going on, we'd go away for three weeks with the whole family. We didn't go to Turks and Caicos, but we'd go to Caribbean, go to Florida. Went to Hawaii three times then and decided it wasn't worth it. It's just too far.

Harley Finkelstein (00:29:08):
Too far. Too far. I agree.

Ed Sonshine (00:29:09):
It was too far. After three ... We went there. It's beautiful, gorgeous. But just too far. But we always-

Harley Finkelstein (00:29:14):
The views are all the same. Hawaii's beautiful. It's too far.

Ed Sonshine (00:29:17):
It's true, unless you live in Vancouver.

David Segal (00:29:19):
Most gorgeous place in the world. It's like, "Ah. It's a little far, no?"

Ed Sonshine (00:29:23):
So, anyway ... You're right. So, I always spent three weeks.

(00:29:31):
And then my wife, because I could be a guy, I mean, it's just the way I was, whatever had to be done, I'd just do it. And if that meant I was not home. Four nights a week, I wasn't home. So, early on when I was still a lawyer, she sort of made a deal with me. And she said, "Eddie, look. I know you got to do what you got to do. That's your job is to make money so we can live nice. But three rules. Number one, you always got to come home for Friday night dinner. I understand if a bomb's going off or something in one of your building, you got to come home for Friday night. If you got to leave later, leave. But you got to be home."

David Segal (00:30:19):
Shabbat dinner together.

Ed Sonshine (00:30:21):
"Got to have it. Number two, you have to be home for dinner at least one other night, a week during the week." She says, "That's for me. I'm tired of having dinner with just the three kids. It'd be nice to be able to talk to-"

David Segal (00:30:36):
And you're an adult.

Ed Sonshine (00:30:37):
"And if, after they go to bed, you got to leave again."

Harley Finkelstein (00:30:40):
No problem.

Ed Sonshine (00:30:40):
"Go, but you got to be home one night at dinner." And she says, "Saturday night, I don't care how tired you are. But Saturday night, we're going out socially with somebody else. Other adults." Doesn't sound like a lot to ask for.

David Segal (00:30:54):
It doesn't sound that bad. No.

Ed Sonshine (00:30:56):
And so, I said, "Okay, you're right."

David Segal (00:30:57):
[inaudible 00:30:57].

Ed Sonshine (00:30:59):
So, I always did that. And we always went away for three weeks with the kids. So, somehow, but you know what? And we've been really blessed with our children. They're all great. They all live here in Toronto, which I worked hard at, because two of them went to school in the States and at-

David Segal (00:31:16):
The cottage probably helped.

Ed Sonshine (00:31:17):
Well, yeah, but the cottage is recent. I was-

David Segal (00:31:21):
And mister. anti-water.

Ed Sonshine (00:31:22):
... anti-cottage. I don't know why anybody wants to go north of Steels. I never got it. I never understood cottages. I used to make fun of them. "Look at them sitting there. 'Oh, look at the beautiful sunset.' It's a bunch of morons." That was my view. They make a fire and look at the sunset. That sounds like a lot of fun to me. I mean, I believe in getting things done.

(00:31:43):
So, then about five years ago, six years ago, yeah, maybe a little over five, I decided I'd already turned 70 and I said, "I can't keep working forever. I got to make room. It's a public company and I got to make room for the next guy." And plus I didn't want to work this hard anymore. And so, I said, "I got to start making plans. I got to start planning ahead and getting succession planning, but also planning for myself. What'll I do when I don't work full-time?"

(00:32:17):
And so, I remember this summer, I took a practice week off, which I never did. I took a week off. I just did. "I'm not coming into the office this week." And I went to play golf with the other old guys that had already retired or sold their-

David Segal (00:32:32):
Picked up a challah.

Ed Sonshine (00:32:32):
Picked up a challah one day. And I came home at the end of the week. I said, "Franny, if I got to do this for a whole summer," because we were getting tired of traveling. We used to go away in the summer, too. Just the two of us. Kids would go to summer camp.

Harley Finkelstein (00:32:45):
Sure.

Ed Sonshine (00:32:46):
We'd go away for two, three weeks. I said, "I'm getting tired of traveling." I said, "I can't spend a summer like this. Let's do something else." She said, "What?" I said, "How about buying a cottage?" She's wanted a cottage for 40 years as did my kids. I said, "How about we buy a cottage?" So, we did. I bought it. My timing turned out to be perfect. I bought it in the fall of 2018.

Harley Finkelstein (00:33:08):
Perfect.

Ed Sonshine (00:33:09):
2019 was our first summer in it. And then the next year, the pandemic hit and everybody showed up.

David Segal (00:33:15):
Right. And apparently you, no boats, no water, no thank you. But then within a week you had a whole flotilla worth of boats.

Ed Sonshine (00:33:22):
Well, if you're going to do something, you do it.

Harley Finkelstein (00:33:23):
Yeah. Well, you're also on Lake Joseph with one of the most, I think, right? You're on Lake Joseph, right?

Ed Sonshine (00:33:24):
We're on Lake Joseph, yeah.

David Segal (00:33:27):
That's actually one of Harley's favorite sayings is-

Ed Sonshine (00:33:29):
It was by accident.

David Segal (00:33:30):
Is how you do anything is how you do everything.

Ed Sonshine (00:33:33):
Well, you know what? We made up our mind, and I have a good friend of mine, Howard Sokolowski, who's on Lake Rosseau. The only thing I asked Fran, I said, "Fran," I said, "Do you want to be a Muskoka or do you want to be on Lake Simcoe?" "Eddie? We're not going up for the weekend. Let's go where it's beautiful. We're going to Muskoka." I said, "Okay," but always she says, "Couple of conditions. It's got to be big enough that all our kids can come up with their families and stay. And we got to know some people in the area. I'm too old to make new friends," which is not true. We make a lot of new friends up there. So, I said, "Okay." So, I call up my friend Howard, who had a cottage on Rosseau and was a big cottage guy.

(00:34:14):
But I said, "Howard, I'm thinking of buying a cottage." "Wait! I'll be your consultant." So, we go up and I said, "I don't need you as my consultant. Give me a name of a good broker." Gives me a broker. He said, "Well, when you're going up, I'll come with you."

(00:34:28):
Okay. So, we go up with the broker and we looked at three, four places and there was only one, it was a fairly new cottage built five years ago because I had decided I didn't want to build because it takes forever.

Harley Finkelstein (00:34:40):
Took too long.

Ed Sonshine (00:34:41):
I was too old. And so, we bought this cottage and it was great. And so, I told the agent, I said, "You know, I think this is the one." Howard says, "You can't buy the cottage yet." I said, "Why not?" He said, "Well, you haven't seen it from the water." I said, "You got to see it from the water?" I said, "Why?" He says, "You got to."

(00:35:00):
So, anyway, he insisted I go over to his cottage with him and get in his boat. It's November. It was cold. And we boated over to my cottage, and if you want to cut this out later, you can, but-

Harley Finkelstein (00:35:13):
I won't. This is amazing.

Ed Sonshine (00:35:14):
... we're coming at it from the water, and I didn't know the property. It was a big property. It's about 1,100 feet of lakefront. There's a flight pole on the point. It's a point called Hemlock Point. It's off Hemlock Point Road and there's a flag pole. And on the flight pole, there's two flags. There's a Canadian flag on top and a German flag underneath it. And we're both looking at this flag, Howard and I.

Harley Finkelstein (00:35:41):
Two Jews.

Ed Sonshine (00:35:41):
And my wife says, What are you doing?" I said, "How can I buy this cottage? I'm buying it from a German." I said, "A guy who flies a German flag." And she says, "Why don't you look at it you're liberating it from a German?" I said, "You know what? You're right. And what have I got against Germans at this point? He's obviously a Canadian guy, but he's but proud of his German heritage."

Harley Finkelstein (00:36:06):
Yeah. Sure.

Ed Sonshine (00:36:06):
Okay. Anyway, I met the guy. He was from Vancouver. He was actually in the gaming business. He made a fortune in video games. But anyway, still does. And he decided to build another cottage. He liked building cottage. So, we bought it.

Harley Finkelstein (00:36:21):
Amazing.

Ed Sonshine (00:36:21):
And so, I said to Fran, I said, "Look, there used to be a German flag up there. What about we put up on Israeli flag?" She says, "You don't think you're enough of a target?"

Harley Finkelstein (00:36:31):
It's true.

Ed Sonshine (00:36:31):
So, there's only a Canadian flag up there now.

Harley Finkelstein (00:36:35):
We heard you say this. I'm going to repeat it because I think it's a beautiful thing and it's something that Dave and I think a lot about. This is about defining success. "Giving financial security to your family is number one for me. My family's equally important. I have three children and nine grandchildren and watch them grow and succeed is what I call success."

(00:36:54):
I want to focus on the first part of that, which is financial security because a theme that Dave and I talk a lot about and a lot of our guests talk about, is that there is a sense that, for a lot of us, we're not enough. We don't have enough. We've not doing enough. We've not done enough.

Ed Sonshine (00:37:14):
Enough is a big word.

Harley Finkelstein (00:37:15):
That's right, yeah. At this point in your life, Eddie, you've done enough, way more than we've done. And for some people, we've done enough. Do you feel like you finally have that security that you are hoping for as a kid? Do you think your family has that security?

Ed Sonshine (00:37:32):
First of all, the answer, yes. Do I ever stop worrying? No.

Harley Finkelstein (00:37:36):
You don't.

Ed Sonshine (00:37:37):
But, if I may tell, I warned you. I give long answers.

Harley Finkelstein (00:37:40):
Please. This is great.

David Segal (00:37:41):
This is what we want.

Ed Sonshine (00:37:43):
When I was in probably my mid to late fifties, sort of the earlier part of this century. So, maybe it was ... I looked around and I'd always been nervous and I'd been upset.

Harley Finkelstein (00:37:57):
Come on! An anxious Jew? Come on, please.

Ed Sonshine (00:37:59):
30 years ago, I had a negative net worth in the early '90s. Literally, I owed more money than I was worth. Negative net worth.

Harley Finkelstein (00:38:08):
And your mid forties at this point?

Ed Sonshine (00:38:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I was nervous all the time. That doesn't go away so fast. And for my father, he taught me my job was to make financial security for my family, period. And I'm laughing because my daughter, she still reminds me that she was going to Tufts University at the time. Sudden she gets in the mail from me a check for 25,000 US. She's in third year. She calls me up, and no letter. Oh, with a little note, "Just deposit this in your account." She calls me up, "What's going on?" I said, "I don't know what's going to happen to me financially in the next year." It's 1992, bad time.

(00:38:47):
And I said, "I want to make sure you got enough money to finish school."

Harley Finkelstein (00:38:50):
Wow.

Ed Sonshine (00:38:50):
"This is for your next year. So, just put in your bank account. It's in your name. I don't own it anymore. It's your money. And you got for school for next year." She said, "Maybe I should come home and not go to school." I said, "Just finish." That's like, don't do it. That's the worst thing.

(00:39:07):
So, I was always nervous. But around the early 2000s, I realized, you know what? However you define financial security, and as everybody knows, the number keeps moving.

Harley Finkelstein (00:39:23):
Totally.

Ed Sonshine (00:39:23):
I mean, I remember when I was in high school, I figured if I have a job where I made $10,000 a year, whoa. And then, at one point, and I don't want to sound ridiculous, you look at it and you say, "Oh, if I could ever have $10 million, I own the world."

(00:39:38):
And then suddenly the numbers keep moving. And yeah, because your lifestyle changes, your expectations change. Things change. But at a certain point, I said, "You know, I actually have enough that I don't worry about financial security. I'm going to be able to keep and maintain-"

Harley Finkelstein (00:39:56):
Your lifestyle.

Ed Sonshine (00:39:56):
"... the lifestyle we got from what I already have."

David Segal (00:40:01):
Was there a moment where you felt you made it?

Ed Sonshine (00:40:04):
No. It just sort of dawned on me over a period of time. There wasn't one big deal. It was just running, running, running, and then suddenly go, "Hmm. Maybe I crossed the finish line." And at that point I go, "So, I've lived my adult life with this one goal. Financial security for me and my family. That's job number one. What do I do now?"

(00:40:28):
So, again, being curious, I actually read some books, philosophy books. I actually talked to rabbis, which I avoid doing, usually. Not my favorite thing. Talked to a lot of smart people. And I actually got the best answer from a Rabbi, an orthodox guy. He says, "You know what, Eddie?" He says, "Your purpose in life at this point is to be happy." I said, "What does that mean?" He says, "Well, the happy means different to everybody. Doesn't mean go sit and take drugs and sit in a corner. It means different things to everybody. So, what do you enjoy doing?" I said, "Well, I actually like working and I like making money," because that's how you define it. Is your work successful or not? I mean, unfortunately I hate to keep going on about that-

Harley Finkelstein (00:41:22):
Yeah. That's just how keep score.

Ed Sonshine (00:41:23):
... but that's how you keep score. Is your work being productive? Well, you made money? Yeah, probably. So, keep working, keep making money.

(00:41:32):
"What else do you like?" I said, "Well, I like spending time with my family." "Spend more time with your family." And I said, "You're just talking about doing what I'm doing." He says, "But you're a happy guy, Eddie." I said, "Yeah, I am." "So, just keep doing it." And it was pretty simple.

Harley Finkelstein (00:41:49):
You already had what you wanted. Yeah.

Ed Sonshine (00:41:51):
Basically, but I needed him to ... I figured there was some formula, like what do I do now?

Harley Finkelstein (00:41:55):
Yeah.

David Segal (00:41:55):
Well, it starts as a need, but it becomes this business and it becomes this pure love at some point.

Ed Sonshine (00:42:01):
Yeah, yeah. So, to this day, do I enjoy making money? Sure.

David Segal (00:42:04):
Yeah.

Ed Sonshine (00:42:05):
It's great to make money. Do I need the money? No. That's not the point at this point, happily.

David Segal (00:42:11):
Let's actually talk about a little bit about philanthropy and how important it is in for Jews and how we're taught at a very young age that we got to give.

Ed Sonshine (00:42:24):
Well, that's part of the self-reliance of a community we've talked about earlier. I think one of the greatest things about the Jewish community, I mean, there's a lot of great things about us. Do we punch above our weight? Without a ... I mean, it's a hard one, what I'm about to say. You've got comedians like Russell Peters, Dave Chappelle, and the reason I know it, Jews control Hollywood. Well, we don't control Hollywood. Are we disproportionately represented there?

Harley Finkelstein (00:42:55):
Probably.

Ed Sonshine (00:42:57):
For sure. Guaranteed. In fact, I read a book once, and I'm sorry for wandering, but a great little book. Just a little book. It was called A World of Their Own: How the Jews Invented Hollywood, because if you go back to the 1920s and earlier, every studio was started by Jews, Warner Brothers, Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer.

David Segal (00:43:18):
Right. And [inaudible 00:43:19]. Yeah.

Ed Sonshine (00:43:21):
I mean, Columbia. I mean, they're all started by Jews who were running away from New York because Edison had a patent on film and the light was good out there. So, they ran away. And they were all immigrants some of them or children of immigrants. And at one time, the Jews created Hollywood. They created an America that didn't exist, the Andy Hardy movies. But we do punch way above our weight. I mean, we own more basketball teams per capita. And yet in the United States, which is a much larger ... Well, I don't know if you have ever asked. Periodically I get asked, "How many Jews are there in Canada?" And when I give them the answer, "Give or take, 350,000." "Come on!"

David Segal (00:44:04):
Yeah. It's less than 1%.

Harley Finkelstein (00:44:05):
Of the global population. Yes.

Ed Sonshine (00:44:07):
They said, "That's not possible."

Harley Finkelstein (00:44:08):
25% of Nobel Prize winners. 25%.

Ed Sonshine (00:44:12):
Yeah. I said, "Look, there's only 15 million in the whole world." And he said, "What?" I go, "That's it." I said, "Guess what? We're finally back to where we were in 1938."

Harley Finkelstein (00:44:24):
That's true.

Ed Sonshine (00:44:25):
And the world population has doubled in the meantime. So, I said, "Ain't a lot of us." So, they look at us and that's why there's, I think, a lot of anti-Semitism is envy. A lot of anti-Semitism is what are they doing that causes them to be disproportionately successful?

Harley Finkelstein (00:44:47):
What are we doing?

Ed Sonshine (00:44:49):
I think historically a great, great emphasis on learning. I mean, no different than a lot of the Asian societies. You know what? A kid doesn't go to university. What? When I was a kid, if you weren't a professional, "What? You didn't go to law school? You're not in medical school? At least become an accountant." That was my fallback if I didn't get into law school.

Harley Finkelstein (00:45:18):
That's everybody's fallback, I think. No disrespect to Eddie the accountant. That's everyone's fallback.

Ed Sonshine (00:45:21):
It's everybody's ... So, there was, I think, a real focus on education. I think a real focus on self-reliance, my generation, your generation. The greatest thing is to go have your own business, be your own boss. Because of that feeling of self-reliance, I'm not saying we don't do it, we do. But the sort of guy who comes in at a low level in a big corporation and slowly works his way up, that's not us.

Harley Finkelstein (00:45:53):
That's not us.

Ed Sonshine (00:45:54):
There are occasions where that happens, but that's not a typical Jewish path. Typical Jewish path, go to work for a big corporation, figure out what the hell they do right.

David Segal (00:46:03):
Then, go do it-

Ed Sonshine (00:46:04):
And then go do it yourself. So, we're entrepreneurial by nature. And I think that and the self-reliance comes from not being able to trust that you're going to get a fair shake from the rest of the world.

David Segal (00:46:16):
Well, they wouldn't hire us at one point.

Ed Sonshine (00:46:19):
Yeah. When I came out of law school, I mean, listen, I graduated in 1970, a long time ago. So, in 1969, I was going to look for [inaudible 00:46:27] positions. Well, it was well known. There was the big seven or eight law firms who wouldn't hire Jews. The banks wouldn't hire Jews.

Harley Finkelstein (00:46:34):
Yeah. Goodman's around at that point, I suppose.

Ed Sonshine (00:46:36):
Goodman's was around. It was Goodman & Goodman but they hired Jews.

Harley Finkelstein (00:46:39):
Yeah. They were the only one.

Ed Sonshine (00:46:39):
So, we went to Goodman's, no, no. Fullers, Goodman and Carr, Minden Gross. We created our own law firms. We created our own accounting firms.

Harley Finkelstein (00:46:49):
Our own golf clubs.

David Segal (00:46:50):
Our own hospital.

Ed Sonshine (00:46:51):
Right. Well, in my speech at TMU, and I was trying to explain that. I said, "Look, you ever wonder why in every city?" I said, "Except for Montreal, where they called it Jewish General, there's a Mount Sinai hospital?"

Harley Finkelstein (00:47:02):
Yeah, right. Mount Sinai Hospital. Yeah.

Ed Sonshine (00:47:03):
There's one in New York. There's one in Toronto. There's one, in it used to be, I mean, it's Cedar Sinai in Los Angeles. There's a big one in Miami. Do they ever wonder about that?

(00:47:12):
Well, let me explain why. Because for a long time, Jews couldn't get into medical school. Well, finally they forced their way into being able to get into medical school. Well, great. Then, they got out and they couldn't get privileges or get accredited at the hospitals. So, what do we do? Call the Daily Star and ask for an exposé? We started our own hospital and I said, "That happened in every city throughout North America." And I'm not sure why they're called Mount Sinai, to tell you the truth, but that's what they called these.

David Segal (00:47:42):
But you were on the board of, I believe, of-

Ed Sonshine (00:47:44):
I'm still on the board. I don't know why they let me still be on the board, but I'm still on the board of Mount Sinai. And in the Jewish community, it was considered a great thing to go on the board of Mount Sinai Hospital because it's a Jewish hospital. Is it Jewish anymore? No. It's owned by the government like every other hospital.

David Segal (00:47:59):
The Montreal Jewish General Hospital's not even a Jewish hospital, right?

Ed Sonshine (00:48:03):
No. Right. But is there a mezuzah on the door?

David Segal (00:48:04):
Damn right there is.

Ed Sonshine (00:48:04):
Damn right. Can you get kosher meals?

David Segal (00:48:06):
Yes.

Ed Sonshine (00:48:06):
Damn right.

David Segal (00:48:07):
Well, and I'm assuming it's Jewish.

Ed Sonshine (00:48:09):
The majority of the board is Jewish

David Segal (00:48:10):
Right. And the majority of the funding. Government aside, I mean a big chunk, what? Probably 25% is private donors.

Ed Sonshine (00:48:15):
Yes. And 95% of that comes from the Jewish community.

David Segal (00:48:18):
From the Jewish community, right.

Ed Sonshine (00:48:20):
And I was chairman of the foundation for a few years and I used to go around to Jews and they give me that argument back, said, "Well, it's not a Jewish hospital anymore." I said, "You know what? We did a poll and yes, you're right. Are most of the doctors Jewish? No. Are most of the patients Jewish? No. So, in that sense, do we own it? No. In that sense it's not a Jewish hospital. Let me tell you what our research showed us. 90% of non-Jews in Southern Ontario consider Mount Sinai a Jewish Hospital."

Harley Finkelstein (00:48:54):
Wow.

Ed Sonshine (00:48:55):
They just do. Was there a Mogen David on the front door? Maybe that helped.

Harley Finkelstein (00:49:00):
Yeah.

Ed Sonshine (00:49:00):
The mezuzah. Its name. And I said, "So, the quality of care given the Mount Sinai Hospital," and that's why I got so involved in it, "Reflects back on the entire Jewish community."

(00:49:14):
I said, "You got to think of Mount Sinai as number one, being the Jewish community's gift to the people of GTA and you got to think of it as how we are seen and represented to the people of GTA. So, it's our duty to make it the best hospital that it can be considering it's not UHN. It's a six, 700-bed hospital." And I said, "I think it's an obligation because of them." I think of the UJA as taxes. I have an obligation because Jews got to look after the world. And I think philanthropy has become ingrained. First of all, if you go on the religious side, you have to. You have to give 10%.

David Segal (00:50:02):
10% required, right?

Ed Sonshine (00:50:03):
Right. You have to. Now, not that many Jews are religious. I'm certainly not but it's something that's been in our culture for 2,000 years.

David Segal (00:50:12):
Right. You learn it as a little kid.

Ed Sonshine (00:50:13):
Yeah. And my parents weren't big givers. I remember my father said, "Who helped me?" I said, "Dad." So, he gave in his own way. And for me, I just figured the more money you make, the more privileged you are to be able to give and actually help people. And I don't just restrict myself to Jewish communities. I give a million dollars to TMU. I've been on the United Way cabinet for many years and we do other stuff. But I have to admit, the vast majority of our philanthropy, my wife and I, does go to the Jewish community because we need it.

Harley Finkelstein (00:50:53):
Sorry. I want to close with this topic and Dave, Phil, feel free to jump in here. There is another theme that sort of underlies this entire project around Big Shot, which is chutzpah. And call it whatever you want to call it. In fact, I'd like to hear what you think it is, but I'd like to understand actually what you think chutzpah is. How do you define chutzpah?

Ed Sonshine (00:51:17):
Yeah. In one word, you could say nerve. "You got a nerve," the old comedian. But it's basically, chutzpah is either asking or doing something that you got no right actually believing you should either get or be able to do. That to me is chutzpah. It's like, "You got a nerve to think you're going to invent a new form of real estate company. What do you think you are?" "Well, I'm going to try." So, I showed a lot of chutzpah, I guess. I never thought of it that way in doing that.

Harley Finkelstein (00:51:47):
Oh, we did. The reason you're on here right now is because it's-

David Segal (00:51:51):
It's the number one requirement is chutzpah. Number two, you got to be over 70.

Ed Sonshine (00:51:55):
Okay. I got it. So, yeah, I guess, and you're a Canadian REIT and you're going to start buying-

Harley Finkelstein (00:52:01):
American properties.

Ed Sonshine (00:52:02):
.... American properties-

David Segal (00:52:02):
In Texas.

Ed Sonshine (00:52:03):
... in Texas?

David Segal (00:52:03):
When everyone else has gone to the US and lost their shirt. Yeah.

Ed Sonshine (00:52:07):
Right. So, yeah. Those are examples of chutzpah. It's dare, dare to try something, dare to go start your own business, dare to start a new teaching.

David Segal (00:52:18):
Do you think it's because we have this generational, I don't want to say trauma, but certainly acknowledge that even when the worst happens, we survive.

Ed Sonshine (00:52:30):
I think you've put your finger on it. I remember my dad and I was a young lawyer and he owned a small plaza with stores in the bottom, apartments on top. There's millions of them in Toronto, Montreal. And some guy wouldn't pay his rent. So, my father turned off the water and the heat. Well, you can't do that.

(00:52:55):
So, a guy goes to court and I go [inaudible 00:52:57] of court. And I don't even know if I was a lawyer yet. I may have been a student. I go to court with my dad. And the judge says to him, he says, "Mr. Sonshine, you can't do that. You have to turn back on the heat. I'm ordering you to turn back on the heat and the water." And my father says, "Well, but he has to pay me my rent, I have a mortgage. I mean, he has to pay the rent." "Well, no. You have to." "I'm not going to do it." And just turns to me, he said, "Will you explain to your client?" I said, "Well, it's actually my father." He said, "Will you tell your father that I'm going to put him in jail for 30 days for contempt of court if he says to me he's not going to listen to my order?"

(00:53:37):
So, I said, "I think he understands." So, my father stands up and says, "Yanna, you think I'm afraid to go to jail for 30 days? You know what I've been through? It's a vacation. Somebody else going to pay to feed me. I've got away from my wife. A vacation." I mean, I know I'm sounding like Jackie Mason.

David Segal (00:53:59):
It's amazing. It's perfect.

Ed Sonshine (00:54:01):
But he meant it. And I saw with a lot of the great Jewish entrepreneurs in those days, the survivors and the not survivors, they'd hit bottom. We'd all lived through a world or seen a world where you lost everything. So, what's to be afraid of? What's going to happen? Got to start over again. I've done that already.

(00:54:23):
So, that's why some of the survivors, our whole apartment building sector here, was primarily built by survivors that started apartment buildings.

David Segal (00:54:32):
To be correct, Holocaust survivors.

Ed Sonshine (00:54:34):
Holocaust survivors, thank you. And they had no fear what was going to happen? And they could live cheaply. They used to live off the quarters from the washing machines and-

Harley Finkelstein (00:54:44):
What do you mean by that? Wow!

Ed Sonshine (00:54:45):
Well, if you look at the apartment buildings that still around today, and people live in them that were being built in the '50s, and most of them date back to the '50s, '60s. Pre-war, nobody built more than a fourplex. That's four stories high. '50s, '60s, elevator technology got better, things got better. People started building apartment buildings and CMHC encouraged it because we needed, just like now, rental housing. You had all these soldiers coming back, people having families, couldn't build houses fast enough. Too expensive. So, you didn't put a washer dryer in every apartment. If you look, New York's like this. Down in the basement, there was a room, the laundry room, and you'd put in washing machines and dryers and they worked on coins.

Harley Finkelstein (00:55:36):
Sure.

Ed Sonshine (00:55:37):
In fact, there was a company called Coin-O-Matic that some very smart guy started and he would do it for you. Most of the Jewish guys said, "No, no. I'll do it myself. Thank you very much." And I know, I have friends of my dad's. They used to play cards together. They show up with a bag of coins. They literally lived off the money that was coming in in the washing-

David Segal (00:56:00):
Coin laundry.

Ed Sonshine (00:56:00):
They didn't live very well because all the money coming in would go to pay down the mortgages quickly because they used to finance this to 102%.

Harley Finkelstein (00:56:09):
Wow.

Ed Sonshine (00:56:10):
And CMHC you could do it then. But they knew you had to pay down debt, get rid of the debt. And some of the wealthiest people I know in Toronto are their kids who are my age now. Okay? Their kids because they [inaudible 00:56:25]-

Harley Finkelstein (00:56:25):
They inherited these things.

David Segal (00:56:25):
They got the punishment of being handed there.

Ed Sonshine (00:56:27):
They got the punishment of getting 8,000 apartment units with no debt.

Harley Finkelstein (00:56:31):
Right.

David Segal (00:56:31):
With no debt, no mortgage. They've already paid off 30 years ago.

Harley Finkelstein (00:56:34):
Right.

Ed Sonshine (00:56:35):
You got it. No debt. And I won't mention his name. And he's fairly active businessman. And so, I said, "Gee, you're in this deal, you're in that deal." I said, "What are you doing all these deals for?" He says, "Well, I got this cash flow." He said, "My dad left me 8,000 units." He says, "You know what the cash flow is?

Harley Finkelstein (00:56:54):
Wow! 8,000 doors, 8,000 apartment we're talking about.

David Segal (00:56:55):
Amazing.

Ed Sonshine (00:56:58):
All in the GTA and in the city. And I said, "No." I said, "I got a pretty good idea what the cash flow is." And I said, "No, about 50% has to go to cost because you're paying taxes or realty taxes, insurance, all that stuff, hydro." And he says, "So, I got to invest it. I got to do this." I said, "Well, you ever want to do a big deal, I guess you can put a mortgage on one of the buildings." Looks at me like I'm a lunatic." He said, "Eddie, the one thing my dad told me before he died, 'Don't ever put mortgages on the money tree.'" That's what he calls it, the money tree, because it's just every [inaudible 00:57:35]-

Harley Finkelstein (00:57:34):
$8 million a month at a thousand-

Ed Sonshine (00:57:36):
He keeps growing money.

Harley Finkelstein (00:57:37):
... dollars rent.

David Segal (00:57:37):
And he already took the rap for this kid to be able ... I mean, he lived off coin laundry-

Ed Sonshine (00:57:42):
He lived off the [inaudible 00:57:43].

David Segal (00:57:42):
... while he's paying his mortgage. Yeah.

Ed Sonshine (00:57:44):
Literally, I remember they used to play cards at my house and half the guys would walk in with a big ... You know the Crown Royal bags?

Harley Finkelstein (00:57:50):
Mm-hmm. Yeah. The purple bags. Sure.

Ed Sonshine (00:57:52):
The purple bags filled with quarters that they ... And if they ran out, they say, "I'll go visit my other building. I'll be back in a half an hour." And they lived off that.

David Segal (00:58:01):
That's awesome.

Harley Finkelstein (00:58:02):
We love these stories so much. We love the idea of understanding the stories, the people that came before us. Again, this is an archive because we want to capture this. We want to almost create a time capsule of these stories.

Ed Sonshine (00:58:14):
I think so.

Harley Finkelstein (00:58:14):
Because Frank, we want our children and your children, your grandchildren, and your great-great-grandchildren to know what happened here.

David Segal (00:58:20):
Well, and also, I mean, we've talked about this. We stand on the shoulders of giants that came before us. And you, Ed, are one of those giants, whether you know it or not-

Ed Sonshine (00:58:31):
Well, I don't but thank you.

David Segal (00:58:32):
... you've been a huge inspiration to us.

Ed Sonshine (00:58:34):
But I have to tell you one interesting, just going back to the point you made before. One of the things that worries me a little, okay, because I really believe one of the reasons Jews were such great entrepreneurs and want it is because they weren't afraid of risk. You can't be afraid of risk, otherwise you don't do anything. I've noticed when you're second, third generation and you're an heir, H-E-I-R, well, you are afraid of risk.

David Segal (00:59:06):
Because you got something to lose, obviously.

Ed Sonshine (00:59:07):
Like my friend who wouldn't put a mortgage on a money tree. You got something to lose. We had nothing to lose.

Harley Finkelstein (00:59:14):
I had nothing to lose. David had nothing to lose.

Ed Sonshine (00:59:16):
Right. Now, some of these young people from wealthy families work very hard. Most don't. I joined Oakdale, which I thought I had really arrived in 1993 or four. I didn't even play golf. But I thought it was really cool that I could join Oakdale. And until I joined Oakdale, I never knew that there were Jews who didn't work. I meet a guy, and again, I don't want to mention his name. "What do you do?" "Well, play golf and I go to Florida in the winter." I said, "You're 42 years old. What do you mean?" "Well, my dad left me this much money or buildings, this, that and you know?"

David Segal (01:00:07):
The shirt sleeves in three generations. No,

Ed Sonshine (01:00:10):
No, no. They 're terrified of-

David Segal (01:00:11):
Of being that-

Ed Sonshine (01:00:12):
... of blowing the money.

David Segal (01:00:13):
Right. Of that.

Ed Sonshine (01:00:13):
So, they're afraid to take any risks. And because he told me, he said, "Well, I went into a business once and I lost $2 million. That's it. Because I got to have enough." And so, I worry a little about that willing ...

(01:00:26):
Now, but I see there's always seems to be ... Listen, I remember Larry Tannenbaum's dad, who I met as a young lawyer, Max Tannenbaum. And I knew him as a young lawyer and I was going to meet with Max Tannenbaum, a giant. And he had had a son, Larry, who now he had four sons. So, Larry was the only one who really became the entrepreneur. Larry took, he went to the old story. How do you make a small fortune? You take a large fortune and blow most of it. He took a small fortune and made it a really large fortune.

(01:01:03):
So, he went the other way. And he never stops working. He's older than me. And I know his son, Kenny, fantastic entrepreneur. Not afraid to take risks. So, it does happen. But I see too many of the other kind like-

David Segal (01:01:18):
Well, I-

Ed Sonshine (01:01:19):
... "You know, I got $10 million, so I can't afford to lose any, so I'm going to do nothing and try to live off the income."

Harley Finkelstein (01:01:24):
Right. I mean, part of the creation of diamonds comes from the pressure. And when you don't have the pressure, it's tougher to make diamonds.

(01:01:34):
Here's the good news. Part of this project is to inspire more people to take those risks to become titans.

Ed Sonshine (01:01:41):
Well, I think-

Harley Finkelstein (01:01:42):
To become titans, to rethink entire industries. I mean, what you did in terms of the model of a real estate investment trust, what Izzy did with creating a brand new model, a business model for how hotels will be owned property and by one party, but managed by another party and create this-

Ed Sonshine (01:02:02):
Took him a little while to figure that part out, too.

Harley Finkelstein (01:02:05):
It did. It did.

David Segal (01:02:05):
Well, but [inaudible 01:02:06] an overnight success. But not just that. I mean, I think what comes across in these interviews is just how much purpose you've found in these pursuits.

Ed Sonshine (01:02:15):
Oh, yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (01:02:16):
It's leg work stuff. I mean, part of the idea ... Your father never had the opportunity to do his life's work because your father, like my father-

Ed Sonshine (01:02:24):
Yeah. Life interruptus.

Harley Finkelstein (01:02:25):
That's right. Their life's work. What do you mean? Putting food on the table. Roof over their head. That is what we do. We were in survival mode and because they set a foundation for us, a minimum bar, we were then able to go and build these great companies, right?

Ed Sonshine (01:02:38):
Right.

Harley Finkelstein (01:02:39):
The key for us is to make sure we maintain that momentum, that we can actually build things that have never been built before with as much ambition and also as much humility as possible. But that makes the Jewish entrepreneurial DNA so unique.

David Segal (01:02:55):
Then when you make it.

Ed Sonshine (01:02:55):
Yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (01:02:57):
And when you make, you give. We sat down with Charles Bronfman. Obviously Charles grew up very different than we all did. But Charles-

Ed Sonshine (01:03:03):
Yeah. He did a lot of stuff. Unbelievable stuff. Yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (01:03:05):
It's unbelievable what he did. He took everything that Sam gave him, and he made it bigger. He created Birthright. He brought major league baseball to Canada. Cadillac Fairview. I mean, he had as much of a chip on his shoulder as anyone did to make sure that he was able to continue to contribute. And that's what the show's all about.

Ed Sonshine (01:03:21):
You have to prove it. Although his brother Edgar and his kids and-

Harley Finkelstein (01:03:23):
Yeah. I know.

David Segal (01:03:23):
That's another story.

Harley Finkelstein (01:03:24):
That's a different story. Yeah. Yeah.

Ed Sonshine (01:03:26):
Yeah. A different ... So, like I say, hopefully there's one in each family that-

Harley Finkelstein (01:03:30):
Carries the torch.

Ed Sonshine (01:03:30):
At least one. But because there's a lot of wealth. I mean, you guys don't live here necessarily. The amount of wealth in Toronto, not just in the Jewish community, but including the Jewish community and the Italian community is way out of proportion of what it was 20 years ago. The last 20 years here in Toronto, you owned a piece of real estate. You made a lot of money.

David Segal (01:03:59):
Tell me about it. I'm looking for houses now. I mean, it's not easy.

Ed Sonshine (01:04:02):
I always say, when all my friends tell me how smart they are, I say, "Guys, yeah, you're smart. A blind monkey could have thrown a dart at a map of the GTA, bought wherever the map landed and made money."

David Segal (01:04:15):
Made money. Well, and then interest rates go from 99 to zero.

Ed Sonshine (01:04:19):
How smart would you be if you grew up in Buffalo?

Harley Finkelstein (01:04:22):
Yeah. That's right.

Ed Sonshine (01:04:24):
I said, "Because the blind monkey trick wouldn't work there."

David Segal (01:04:27):
Yeah. We should do Big Shot Buffalo.

Harley Finkelstein (01:04:29):
Add [inaudible 01:04:29].

David Segal (01:04:29):
I bet there's some sharp-

Harley Finkelstein (01:04:31):
Last question for you.

Ed Sonshine (01:04:31):
You have to be sharper.

Harley Finkelstein (01:04:32):
You have to be sharper, right?

Ed Sonshine (01:04:33):
Yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (01:04:33):
Before we let you go, Eddie. We're sitting here, a little bit younger than you are.

Ed Sonshine (01:04:39):
Oh, time flies.

Harley Finkelstein (01:04:39):
Yeah, time flies, right? And we're having a good time.

David Segal (01:04:40):
We're catching up, though.

Harley Finkelstein (01:04:42):
But I want to ask this final question. Sitting here with us, knowing, whether you know it or not, how much of our own lives and our ambition has been shaped on watching people like you build incredible things, what's one piece of advice you can leave us with that you think you wish you would've known when you were at our stage, at our age?

Ed Sonshine (01:05:04):
I think it's ... Yeah, that's a hard question. Good question. Probably never be satisfied. Nothing's ever as good as it could be, whether it's your own life, whether it's your net worth or it's the world around you or your own family. You can never say, "Okay, I've done enough. I'm satisfied. It's good." And I think one thing that I see I share with a lot of my friends that are in the same sort of both age and economic bracket as me, never satisfied. "What can I do with the cottage this year to make it better?" And this year's project is a pickleball court-

Harley Finkelstein (01:05:46):
Okay. Of course.

Ed Sonshine (01:05:48):
... which I will never use.

Harley Finkelstein (01:05:49):
That's right.

Ed Sonshine (01:05:49):
But last year's was a vegetable garden. So, I mean, there's always stuff to do. So, never be satisfied with either your life or your achievements or your business. It could always be better. There's always a better way of doing things. So, that's the piece of it.

Harley Finkelstein (01:06:05):
I love that.

Ed Sonshine (01:06:05):
And I didn't know that for a long time. I figured. "Well, if I get to here, that's it."

Harley Finkelstein (01:06:11):
You're good, right?

Ed Sonshine (01:06:11):
Get to here, that's it.

Harley Finkelstein (01:06:11):
Yeah. But it's almost embrace the fact that it's always this journey.

David Segal (01:06:15):
Right, exactly. And you keep moving the goalposts. I mean, that's the growth mindset at the end. Yeah.

Ed Sonshine (01:06:18):
And that's what happens. You keep moving the goalpost.

Harley Finkelstein (01:06:20):
I love that.

Ed Sonshine (01:06:20):
That's a better way of saying it or another way of saying it. Thank you for having me.

Harley Finkelstein (01:06:24):
Thank you for joining us. (singing)

David Segal (01:06:24):
Thank you for coming. This is great.

Harley Finkelstein (01:06:25):
It's a great honor to have you here.

David Segal (01:06:27):
Yeah. Love it.