Bobbi Brown's Billion Dollar Beauty Legacy

Harley Finkelstein (00:00:00):
Hey everyone, it's Harley Finkelstein and David Segal here, and we are thrilled to announce that Season Three of Big Shot is officially here.

David Segal (00:00:08):
That's right, Harley. We're back with more incredible stories of Jewish entrepreneurs who've made big moves, taken tough risks, and changed the game in ways you won't believe.

Harley Finkelstein (00:00:17):
When you name a show Big Shot, you better be ready to deliver. And the first two seasons were filled with guests that have gone beyond our wildest dreams.

David Segal (00:00:25):
But that just means we had to go even bigger. This season's guest includes some of the names we dreamed [00:00:30] about when we first started thinking about the show. These are names that you hope you can get, but you're not sure if you can make it happen. But, it's happening.

Harley Finkelstein (00:00:36):
It's actually happening. It's a huge honor to speak to all these incredible big shots. So, we're kicking off Season three with an absolute gem. Today, you'll hear from a woman who revolutionized the entire beauty industry. The one, the only, Bobbi Brown. But, Big Shot is different because it's not just about the guests. We are also so grateful, so thankful for all of you, the listeners. And all we ask of you this season [00:01:00] is one simple thing. If you enjoy the show, if you're getting value from it, please share this podcast, this project with one friend or one family member that you think will really enjoy it too.

David Segal (00:01:10):
That's it. Just one person who you think would love hearing these amazing stories as much as you do. Let's spread the word and keep building this incredible archive together.

Harley Finkelstein (00:01:18):
Season Three is packed with stories that inspire, educate and entertain. And we cannot wait for you to hear them.

David Segal (00:01:24):
We're also thrilled to announce that we've welcomed two new great partners to the Big Shot family as executive [00:01:30] producers, Jared and Brandon connect. As entrepreneurs themselves, they share in our passion for capturing the amazing stories of these great entrepreneurs and archiving them for future generations.

Harley Finkelstein (00:01:40):
Jared and Brandon will work closely with us to take the Big Shot project to new heights, and we are so excited.

David Segal (00:01:47):
And we're just getting started.

Harley Finkelstein (00:01:48):
Enjoy Season Three of Big Shot.

David Segal (00:01:54):
So, this next interview is incredible. This is a person who, first of all, probably had the craziest non-compete [00:02:00] I've heard in my entire life.

Harley Finkelstein (00:02:02):
Is that even enforceable? It's so outrageous.

David Segal (00:02:04):
That non-compete was so outrageous that she actually put the end date non-compete on a necklace-

Harley Finkelstein (00:02:10):
It mattered to her.

David Segal (00:02:10):
... and wore it around. One of the things you and I always talk about is those early days of whether it was the DJ company, the T-shirt business or selling tea, you just kind of need to grind. Right?

Harley Finkelstein (00:02:20):
[inaudible 00:02:21].

David Segal (00:02:21):
And you grab that phone book, the proverbial phone book, and you just hit the phones and you're just constantly trying to get someone, anyone [00:02:30] to say "yes."

Harley Finkelstein (00:02:31):
It's a lot of "no's."

David Segal (00:02:31):
It's a lot of "no's." And the ability to persevere through those no's and have the same great attitude on the next call, even though someone just hung up the phone on you is really, really hard.

Harley Finkelstein (00:02:40):
And most fold. This is where the rubber meets the road. And frankly, our next guest did this for far longer than I ... I came [inaudible 00:02:49] It was seven years-

David Segal (00:02:49):
Seven years. She literally took a phone book and went through calling modeling agencies, calling magazine companies, just begging them to let her go on and do the makeup for [00:03:00] these shots. And she was grinding longer than it took her to build her namesake company and sell it-

Harley Finkelstein (00:03:06):
That's right.

David Segal (00:03:07):
... for an extraordinary amount of money, that later went on to be a billion-dollar business.

Harley Finkelstein (00:03:10):
That's what resonates so much with the interview. This is not someone who was destined to be this big success.

David Segal (00:03:15):
No.

Harley Finkelstein (00:03:15):
She is someone who through sheer hard work and a little bit of luck, and an incredible mind for product and empathy of the customer, was able to build one of the most iconic, one of the most recognizable beauty brands that's ever been created ever.

David Segal (00:03:29):
We're [00:03:30] talking about Bobbi Brown. She built this massive company, her namesake, and then lost the ability to use her name doing what she loves.

Harley Finkelstein (00:03:37):
She is the godmother of direct to consumer. Before anybody was talking about DTC, she was doing mail order. Well before Shopify, well before the DTC movement, she created it. It's an incredible interview. We hope you enjoy it. Ladies and gentlemen, Bobbi Brown. Let's go-

MUSIC (00:03:52):
[inaudible 00:03:52] ... here.

(00:03:53):
Started from the bottom, now my whole team here.

(00:03:56):
Started from the bottom, now we're here.

(00:03:59):
Started from the [00:04:00] bottom, now the whole team here.

(00:04:07):
I done kept it real from the jump.

(00:04:10):
Living at my-

Harley Finkelstein (00:04:11):
Chicago-born, immigrant grandparent. I want to talk about Cadillac Sam. We're fascinated by Cadillac Sam. Dropped out of one university, then went to the other. What I'm most-

Bobbi Brown (00:04:19):
And then went to a third.

Harley Finkelstein (00:04:20):
And went to a third one afterwards? What I'm most curious about to start off with is how does a makeup artist from New York City ... Where do you get the chutzpah to start cold calling [00:04:30] magazines and cold calling models to try to get you a gig?

Bobbi Brown (00:04:33):
Well, a makeup artist who moved from Boston-

Harley Finkelstein (00:04:37):
To New York City

Bobbi Brown (00:04:38):
... to New York City and didn't know anyone. And I wanted to be a makeup artist. Originally, I called a makeup artist and I left a message on her cell phone and I said, "I'd love to assist you." I thought that's a good way to ... She didn't call me back, but her agent was listed. So, then I called her agent and I went in to talk to him, and he basically said, "There's nothing I could do [00:05:00] for you, but this is some things you could do." So, I just started. He eventually got me a couple gigs, but then I'm like, "All right. Now what do I do?" So I opened up the Yellow Pages and I looked up "makeup,", "models," and I just started making calls, because what else was there to do?

Harley Finkelstein (00:05:14):
And someone eventually called you back? Or-

Bobbi Brown (00:05:18):
Of course. Yeah. And I made appointments. And so my job was to go and have appointments, go-sees with these people.

Harley Finkelstein (00:05:27):
Go-sees?

Bobbi Brown (00:05:27):
They're called go-sees.

Harley Finkelstein (00:05:29):
Okay. Go see [00:05:30] somebody?

Bobbi Brown (00:05:30):
Go-see someone. They're called "go sees." Models go on go-sees with their portfolio, makeup artists.

Harley Finkelstein (00:05:36):
Yeah. You make it sound easy, though. But, we both had to do lots of cold calling. You must've heard the word "no" a lot? I know I would would've felt-

Bobbi Brown (00:05:45):
Sure. But, then you call someone else-

Harley Finkelstein (00:05:48):
[inaudible 00:05:48] Right?

Bobbi Brown (00:05:48):
Yeah. You call someone else. And I got in and I'd walk in there and I'd be like, "Hi. I am blah. Blah. Blah." And then they'd be like, "Hi. But ... " and they would tell you. "Okay. This is interesting, but you need pictures [00:06:00] in your book from a magazine in order for me to book you." I'm like, "But, how do I get those pictures in my book?"

Harley Finkelstein (00:06:08):
Yeah. It's Catch 22.

Bobbi Brown (00:06:09):
"Like how?" And I would ask those questions. I think that was my point of difference without realizing it. It's like I never tried to pretend that I was cool, I was smart. I just wanted to learn, I was a sponge. And I think I was actually nice. You're from Chicago. I didn't have a New York attitude yet.

Harley Finkelstein (00:06:27):
Mm-hmm. Yes. Eventually though, Naomi Campbell [00:06:30] and Vogue cover says yes.

Bobbi Brown (00:06:32):
Seven years. Seven years.

Harley Finkelstein (00:06:33):
So, you're basically doing these cold calling for seven years?

Bobbi Brown (00:06:36):
Yes. And by the way, I had to pay my rent. My dad gave me, as a graduation present, a year of free rent and a couple hundred bucks a month. And I called him up one day and I said ... And he gave me a credit card. I had $500 maximum on my card, and I was always over. And then I kept getting these weird charges. I didn't know what an interest charge was. And so, I would call my dad up [00:07:00] and I'm like, "Dad. I've tried everything to budget. Could you please teach me how to budget?" He said, "I won't teach you how to budget." And I sat back and he said, "I'm going to teach you how to make more money."

Harley Finkelstein (00:07:11):
And what did he teach you?

Bobbi Brown (00:07:13):
No. He said, "Stop worrying about how you're going to budget. Start figuring out how you're going to make more money." So I said, "Okay." And I put an ad in the Village Voice, got a-

Harley Finkelstein (00:07:22):
Do you remember what the ad said?

Bobbi Brown (00:07:22):
What?

Harley Finkelstein (00:07:22):
Do you remember what the ad said? The ad copy?

Bobbi Brown (00:07:26):
"Makeup lessons. You need your makeup?" Something like [00:07:30] that. I got one call. I booked the thing. He met me somewhere. It was some studio. It was a guy who told me he was in a play. He was a total female impersonator. Had a bag, he had Gucci loafers on. He looked like he was from Connecticut. Had a whole bag of women's clothes, and he just kept trying all the different clothes on, asking for different makeup. I didn't put another ad in.

Harley Finkelstein (00:07:53):
That was it?

Bobbi Brown (00:07:54):
No. That was it.

Harley Finkelstein (00:07:54):
So, it was job, to job, to job.

Bobbi Brown (00:07:56):
Yeah. Job to job-

Harley Finkelstein (00:07:57):
No stability?

Bobbi Brown (00:07:57):
... to job. No. My entire [00:08:00] life and career was no stability until Estee Lauder. So, I just always freelanced.

Harley Finkelstein (00:08:07):
I know I would've felt really anxious. Right? How did you feel being-

Bobbi Brown (00:08:12):
[inaudible 00:08:13] ... there's always worry that, how are you going to get the money? But, by the way, what difference is being an entrepreneur? It's the same thing. It's the same feeling-

Harley Finkelstein (00:08:24):
As an individual you're trying to figure it out. As an entrepreneur, you're also trying to figure it out.

Bobbi Brown (00:08:28):
Same thing.

Harley Finkelstein (00:08:29):
You might as well have somebody that [00:08:30] has growth potential, that has opportunity.

Bobbi Brown (00:08:32):
Right.

David Segal (00:08:33):
Well, the difference is you're trying to figure it out. Your dad's giving you a set budget. You have these interest payments, and you're living hand to mouth at this point?

Bobbi Brown (00:08:40):
Right. Totally.

David Segal (00:08:40):
Yeah.

Bobbi Brown (00:08:41):
Yeah. Totally. But, I have a gift. Some people say, "How come? How come?" I have this weird gift. I'm so naive. Seriously. I'm so naive. It's not that I think everything's going to work out. But, if it doesn't work out, I'm like, "All right. Well, I'll just-

Harley Finkelstein (00:08:55):
Figure it out?

Bobbi Brown (00:08:57):
... figure it out. I'll just alter it and figure it out." So, I always [00:09:00] think, "This is such a great idea," and I have people around me that say, "That's a terrible idea." I don't listen.

Harley Finkelstein (00:09:09):
I mean, you're using the term "naivete" or "being naive," but it's also, you are very ambitious. But, it sounds to me like you're very optimistic?

Bobbi Brown (00:09:19):
I am. I'm really optimistic. I'm very ambitious. I think ambition is, sounds negative.

Harley Finkelstein (00:09:29):
Does it?

Bobbi Brown (00:09:30):
[00:09:30] I just said "sounds negative."

David Segal (00:09:30):
Not to us.

Harley Finkelstein (00:09:30):
Not to us. Yeah.

Bobbi Brown (00:09:31):
Yeah. But to-

Harley Finkelstein (00:09:31):
A lot of a people.

Bobbi Brown (00:09:31):
To a lot of a people.

David Segal (00:09:31):
[inaudible 00:09:34].

Bobbi Brown (00:09:34):
Yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (00:09:35):
Even the whole chutzpah thing. You cold-calling a bunch of models and magazines takes great audacity, great chutzpah. Dave and I thrive on this idea of chutzpah. We've had people say to us, "Hey, the whole concept of chutzpah gives me an icky feeling." And we're like, "But, this is like the best stories have been built on chutzpah, on audacity."

Bobbi Brown (00:09:54):
And also, I just see opportunity where other people see a closed book. [00:10:00] I am like, "This tea is so good. I'm like, I would love to create my own tea. How about a Jones Row tea?

David Segal (00:10:06):
Done. We'll talk after.

Bobbi Brown (00:10:08):
I can't ... Well-

David Segal (00:10:08):
Absolutely.

Bobbi Brown (00:10:09):
Or The George. I have a hotel in Montclair. I can't use Bobbi Brown.

Harley Finkelstein (00:10:12):
Yeah.

David Segal (00:10:13):
We will make you the greatest blend you've ever had.

Harley Finkelstein (00:10:15):
Look. He's already hustling-

Bobbi Brown (00:10:18):
[inaudible 00:10:17] ... for digestion.

David Segal (00:10:21):
We'll interrupt this for ...

Bobbi Brown (00:10:21):
For digestion, for-

Harley Finkelstein (00:10:21):
Oh. Don't worry. Energy. Digestion. Sleep. We'll do the whole-

David Segal (00:10:24):
It can be a whole Jewish, stomach-issue, anxiety thing.

Harley Finkelstein (00:10:29):
I want to go back [00:10:30] to your dad. Your dad said to you, "Let me, instead of teach you about budgeting, let me teach you how to make more money." Was entrepreneurship around the dinner table in Chicago a thing?

Bobbi Brown (00:10:38):
We didn't know what an entrepreneur was. When I went to college and I went to Emerson and told him I had an idea of studying makeup at Emerson, they didn't have a program. They said, "We have an interdisciplinary program." Could someone Google "interdisciplinary"?

Harley Finkelstein (00:10:54):
I think it means everything.

Bobbi Brown (00:10:54):
Okay. But I designed my own major. But, I learned how to be an entrepreneur at Emerson, because [00:11:00] whatever I put into it, I got out of it. And I got to make shit up. I'm like, "Oh, okay. I could do this. I could do this. I could do this." And you could literally sell that smile. Just smile at me. You know that works for you?

Harley Finkelstein (00:11:18):
Does you? Okay. All right. All right.

Bobbi Brown (00:11:18):
Okay.

David Segal (00:11:23):
We interrupt this to tell you about Harley's smile.

Harley Finkelstein (00:11:26):
Okay. Let's continue. So, you get your break seven years into it. [00:11:30] Vogue cover, Naomi Campbell. Talk us how you go from there to having your first little cart, little table at Bergdorf.

Bobbi Brown (00:11:38):
Okay. Well, it was seven years after I started being freelance. During that time, I broke up with one boyfriend who I went out with for 12 years. Met this other guy, fell madly in love with, Steven. Got engaged in three months. Married six months [00:12:00] after that. And I just didn't want to travel. I was a freelance makeup artist, top of my game. The big-

Harley Finkelstein (00:12:08):
Vogue was calling at this point?

Bobbi Brown (00:12:09):
Vogue was calling me. And the biggest job of my life, I turned down, which was a Ralph Lauren campaign for three weeks in Bali. Bruce Weber shot it, and it was top-rate. And I was like only panicked that I was going to miss Stephen. So, I went to him. And Steven was in real estate and it crashed, and we needed [00:12:30] the money. We needed it. And he said, "Don't worry. We'll figure something out."

Harley Finkelstein (00:12:34):
Wow!

Bobbi Brown (00:12:34):
So, we got married and pregnant on our one-year anniversary. And I did a shoot and I met a chemist and I said, "I've always wanted to make a lipstick." He said, "I'll make it for you." And I said, "Okay," and I told him what I wanted and I gave him the three different things I wanted him to mix and blend. And he sent it to me and he said, "Well, we could [00:13:00] sell it." He said, "I'll give it to you, but you have to sell it. You have to do everything else." So, okay. And he said, "We'll sell it for $15. I'll get 7.50. You get 7.50." Oh, my God! What a deal. I thought I'll be able to buy groceries.

(00:13:13):
So I started doing that, and then I realized not everyone's going to like this lipstick, because it was lip color, which I didn't call "nude," because I called it "brown," because it was brown-based. But, then I started thinking as I always do, because I can't turn off my brain. I assume you guys can't either [00:13:30] of the 10 different colors that I could make, that no one would ever have to buy another lipstick again. You could mix and blend and whatever. So, I made those 10 with this chemist, and I went-

Harley Finkelstein (00:13:41):
This chemist, was he a makeup chemist, per se?

Bobbi Brown (00:13:44):
Cosmetics-

Harley Finkelstein (00:13:44):
Cosmetics. Okay.

Bobbi Brown (00:13:45):
I met him through Kiehl's Pharmacy when it was an independent thing. He did all their creams.

Harley Finkelstein (00:13:50):
But, 50:50. Looking back on it, was that a good deal?

Bobbi Brown (00:13:54):
It didn't cost me a nickel, so was it the right deal that we ... ? No.

Harley Finkelstein (00:13:59):
Because then you went [00:14:00] to sell it to Bergdorf. And I'm assuming-

Bobbi Brown (00:14:01):
Yeah. The chemist's not involved by then.

Harley Finkelstein (00:14:03):
The chemist's not there by then? Okay.

Bobbi Brown (00:14:04):
So, that's how I started. And then, I was having lunch with my friend, Lesley Seymour, who was a beauty editor. Did you know Lesley at Glamour Magazine? And we talked about our kids. We both had little babies and what's going on? I said, "Oh. I started this thing." We didn't know the word "side hustle." Okay. That wasn't a thing. But I said, "O. I started making these things, these lipsticks." And she goes, "Can I write about it? Can I do a story?" I'm like, "Why would you want [00:14:30] to do that?" Now I know it's called PR. And we got bombarded with calls. So I had this little business with me and this chemist. My husband was mailing it. My sister-in-law was doing the bookkeeping. I have no idea what the revenue was.

Harley Finkelstein (00:14:46):
Was it called Bobbi Brown at this point?

Bobbi Brown (00:14:49):
It was.

Harley Finkelstein (00:14:50):
Okay.

Bobbi Brown (00:14:51):
It was, because we didn't know what else to call it.

Harley Finkelstein (00:14:53):
Yeah. So, you just called it your name. Yeah.

David Segal (00:14:55):
But, just to add some context. You're in a startup, your husband-

Bobbi Brown (00:14:58):
We didn't have a startup. We didn't [00:15:00] know what a startup was. Yes.

Harley Finkelstein (00:15:01):
Right. Okay. But, presumably you have this business that you're not sure where it's going to go. And your husband-

Bobbi Brown (00:15:06):
We weren't thinking about it. We weren't worried about where it was going.

Harley Finkelstein (00:15:09):
But, you're newly married. Your husband has his entire real-estate business fell apart.

Bobbi Brown (00:15:14):
Well, it was slow. It never fell apart. It never went bankrupt. And now it's huge. But, yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (00:15:20):
Did that weigh on you at all at the time? What was that conversation like?

Bobbi Brown (00:15:24):
No. He went to law school. He said the real estate market crashed. He went to law school. [00:15:30] He was going to get a job.

Harley Finkelstein (00:15:31):
And your business is doing well enough at this point-

Bobbi Brown (00:15:34):
No. No. No. It wasn't. It was a little extra cash. But, no. It wasn't. It wasn't a thing. We lived in the suburbs. We moved to New Jersey, to Montclair. I was commuting in for work. I had a new baby. Steven was in law school. And ...

Harley Finkelstein (00:15:50):
And where were you selling these? It wasn't direct to consumer.

Bobbi Brown (00:15:51):
It was totally direct to consumer, because we would mail order them.

Harley Finkelstein (00:15:55):
And were people even finding out about Bobbi Brown Cosmetics at this point?

Bobbi Brown (00:15:59):
Well, it wasn't Bobbi Brown [00:16:00] Cosmetics. It's these lipsticks.

Harley Finkelstein (00:16:01):
Okay. So, it's lipsticks?

Bobbi Brown (00:16:03):
It's lipsticks. It's these 10 lipsticks. Word of mouth. Then Glamour Magazine wrote about it.

Harley Finkelstein (00:16:08):
Okay. So, that actually PR worked?

Bobbi Brown (00:16:10):
PR worked. Yeah. I guess there was an internet.

Harley Finkelstein (00:16:14):
Not really. Not at that point.

Bobbi Brown (00:16:15):
Not really. So, yeah. It was mail order.

Harley Finkelstein (00:16:18):
You described yourself as one of your superpowers being naive. And I'm listening to this and I'm like, "Wow! You got a newborn. A husband whose business is not doing well. A business of your [00:16:30] own that isn't exactly breaking the bank yet." When does being naive a superpower and when has it worked against you in certain situations, if it has at all?

Bobbi Brown (00:16:40):
I don't think it's ever worked against me. I've done things that haven't worked, but that doesn't mean it was a failure. That just means it didn't work and I-

Harley Finkelstein (00:16:49):
It didn't work?

Bobbi Brown (00:16:49):
It didn't work and I should do something else. I could do a whole podcast about how I didn't build this.

David Segal (00:16:55):
Yeah. Right.

Harley Finkelstein (00:16:56):
That. The missed opportunities?

Bobbi Brown (00:16:58):
Not missed, but what I [00:17:00] could have done, should have done, but thank God I didn't do.

Harley Finkelstein (00:17:02):
Right. Because it led you to this?

Bobbi Brown (00:17:04):
Because it led me to this. And I do believe that in life. So-

Harley Finkelstein (00:17:09):
So, you're selling direct to consumer, mail order. You have your sister-in involved. You have your husband involved. You're involved. You have a chemist, who I guess is your partner at this particular point?

Bobbi Brown (00:17:18):
Yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (00:17:19):
What happened?

Bobbi Brown (00:17:19):
There was nothing signed.

Harley Finkelstein (00:17:20):
Yeah. Of course. There was just a handshake agreement, kind of thing.

Bobbi Brown (00:17:22):
He was a guy. He was just a guy who lived in-

Harley Finkelstein (00:17:23):
[Inaudible 00:17:23]. He's a guy making stuff.

Bobbi Brown (00:17:24):
Lived in Pennsylvania. And then we went to a party with friends. And [00:17:30] this woman lived in the Upper East Side and I went into the party. I said, "Hi, I'm Bobbi. Thanks for inviting me." She said, "I'm Allison," and as I do, I said, "Oh, what do you do?" And she said, "I'm the cosmetics buyer at Bergdorf Goodman."

Harley Finkelstein (00:17:44):
Wow!

Bobbi Brown (00:17:45):
And I said, "Oh, I have this line of lipsticks." And she goes, "Oh, my God! We should take them." And I said, "Cool." And I somehow sent them all to her. And we had these business partners at the time, we [00:18:00] just put together, because Steve and I realized there's something here. So, we didn't know anything. So, we asked our friends to be our partners, 50:50.

Harley Finkelstein (00:18:10):
And why'd you want them as your partners?

Bobbi Brown (00:18:12):
Because the wife was in PR. The husband worked in cosmetics, for not a successful cosmetics company, but he knew more-

Harley Finkelstein (00:18:21):
He knew the industry a little bit more?

Bobbi Brown (00:18:22):
He knew more than we did at the time. And it was a very successful partnership and really difficult. [00:18:30] Really difficult. So-

David Segal (00:18:32):
What made it difficult?

Bobbi Brown (00:18:33):
Personalities. Yeah. Personalities. We launched in Bergdorf. Launched in Bergdorf.

Harley Finkelstein (00:18:44):
What was that like?

Bobbi Brown (00:18:44):
Well, during the negotiation, she said, "We'll take it." And then I got a call that said, "Bobbi, I'm so sorry. We can't take it, because there's too many things. And we didn't realize it." And I was working, doing a Saks catalog that day, and I told all the Saks people about [00:19:00] going into Bergdorf. They're like, "No. No. No. You got to come pitch us," and I don't know why ... This was a Papa Sam moment. I got the message that Bergdorf said no. I called her back and I said, "Lesley," or, "Allison? No problem, because Saks wants it." She called me back in five minutes, "We'll take it."

Harley Finkelstein (00:19:18):
Wow! So that actual, the risk of them losing it to Saks was sufficient to encourage her to actually get a deal done?

Bobbi Brown (00:19:23):
Right. Right. Right. And by the way-

Harley Finkelstein (00:19:24):
Saks had not really said yes yet?

Bobbi Brown (00:19:25):
They didn't say yes yet. They just thought it was an interesting-

Harley Finkelstein (00:19:28):
Chutzpah. Again?

Bobbi Brown (00:19:30):
[00:19:30] How that popped into my head to do I have no idea.

Harley Finkelstein (00:19:33):
Well, you said it was a Papa Sam moment.

Bobbi Brown (00:19:34):
It was just like Papa Sam.

Harley Finkelstein (00:19:36):
Who's your grandfather, Cadillac Sam.

Bobbi Brown (00:19:38):
Who's my grandfather. Yeah. Exactly.

Harley Finkelstein (00:19:39):
Is there a moment where he did something similar?

Bobbi Brown (00:19:41):
I was always around watching him sell cars. And he was a Chicago-

Harley Finkelstein (00:19:48):
Wheeler dealer.

Bobbi Brown (00:19:49):
Wheeler dealer.

Harley Finkelstein (00:19:49):
Right?

Bobbi Brown (00:19:50):
Yeah. Wheeler dealer.

Harley Finkelstein (00:19:52):
And did you think that was cool at the time? Were you like, "Wow! I can learn from this?" Or was it just you absorbing it?

Bobbi Brown (00:19:57):
Of Papa?

Harley Finkelstein (00:19:57):
Yeah.

Bobbi Brown (00:19:58):
No. I didn't know I was learning. Just like your kids [00:20:00] don't know what they're learning, watching.

Harley Finkelstein (00:20:02):
You just saw it?

Bobbi Brown (00:20:03):
Yeah. I realized later, "Ah. That's where I figured that out."

Harley Finkelstein (00:20:08):
Okay. So now-

Bobbi Brown (00:20:09):
My dad was a personal injury attorney. He had his own business. So-

Harley Finkelstein (00:20:13):
You saw that as well?

Bobbi Brown (00:20:15):
I saw that-

Harley Finkelstein (00:20:16):
So, yeah. A sort of osmosis, you inherited a lot of this incredible entrepreneurial instincts. Okay. So, let me set the stage here, because it's just fascinating. So, Bergdorf initially says they decide maybe no. You then call them, you convince them. Chutzpah. Audacity. "Well, [00:20:30] Saks will take it. No big deal." You show confidence, frankly. They have FOMO and Bergdorf's like, "No. No. No. Please come to Bergdorf." So, then the deal does get done?

Bobbi Brown (00:20:39):
Right.

Harley Finkelstein (00:20:40):
And what was the deal with Bergdorf?

Bobbi Brown (00:20:42):
We'll give you a table, so you could sell your lipsticks.

Harley Finkelstein (00:20:47):
So, they weren't buying inventory? They were-

David Segal (00:20:48):
[inaudible 00:20:49].

Harley Finkelstein (00:20:48):
It's basically not even them. [inaudible 00:20:50] So, it's like you have a store within a store. Right?

Bobbi Brown (00:20:52):
Are you going to believe me if I tell you, I have no idea? That's why I had business partners. I was never interested, especially early on, [00:21:00] things that didn't really matter. What mattered to me is the product and the marketing and the PR and the visuals. And I know more now after all these years, but I don't have a clue-

Harley Finkelstein (00:21:12):
But, hold on. Steve, the chemist is still supplying you?

Bobbi Brown (00:21:14):
Yeah. Oh, no. No. No. No.

Harley Finkelstein (00:21:16):
So, he's out by now?

Bobbi Brown (00:21:17):
He's out, because he couldn't see any other way to make a deal. So, we had to find another lab. Do you know how I found this lab? I lived in an apartment for [00:21:30] a few months with my then fiancee. And I'm in the elevator and there's a woman. And I said, "Hi." And she says, "Hi." I don't know why I said, "What do you do?" And she said, "Oh, I work at MANA Cosmetics in Long Island City." And I said, "Oh. Do you have a card?"

Harley Finkelstein (00:21:47):
Wow! This, you saying, "What do you do?", has had this massive ripple effect on your entire career.

Bobbi Brown (00:21:54):
It's bizarre.

Harley Finkelstein (00:21:55):
It's remarkable. It's a one line.

David Segal (00:21:57):
It's a counterintuitive lesson-

Harley Finkelstein (00:21:59):
Well, most people [00:22:00] don't say. You don't ask what they do. Right?

Bobbi Brown (00:22:02):
Well, most people don't even say hello.

David Segal (00:22:03):
Of course. That's right.

Harley Finkelstein (00:22:03):
"Hey, kids. Guess what? Remember that, 'don't talk to strangers'? Talk to strangers."

David Segal (00:22:07):
You're right.

Bobbi Brown (00:22:08):
That's how I got on the Today Show as a beauty editor 14 years, because I met someone who ... Jeff Zucker's grandmother.

David Segal (00:22:17):
How'd you meet-

Bobbi Brown (00:22:17):
[inaudible 00:22:18] ... that story? Yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (00:22:18):
How'd you meet Jeff Zucker's grandmother?

Bobbi Brown (00:22:19):
I was at a book signing for my first book. I was giving a keynote. And at the end of it, "Any questions?" And this short, little Jewish woman in the back raised her hand. I go [00:22:30] back there and I love short Jewish women. I'm short, but I'm not old.

Harley Finkelstein (00:22:34):
I too love short Jewish women. I'm married to a short Jewish woman. My sisters are short Jewish women.

Bobbi Brown (00:22:38):
But, the grandmothers. I particularly love the grandmothers. And I went back and she asked me some question, "How do I keep my lipstick on?", and I told her. And she said ... First of all, I was at Neiman Marcus in Circle in Miami. So, it was fair when she asked me, "Are you Jewish?" And I said yes. And she said, "You've done so well for a Jewish girl." And I said, "Thank you." She said, "Is there anything else you want to do?" And I couldn't [00:23:00] think of anything. And she said, "I saw you on the Today Show." I'd been on once. And I said, "I'd like to be a regular on the Today Show." And she says, "Honey, Jeff Zucker's my grandson."

Harley Finkelstein (00:23:08):
Wow!

Bobbi Brown (00:23:09):
This was a Friday. No joke. Monday I was on the Today Show. Jeff came down from his office. He was executive producer, and he always called me "Barbara." He said, "Barbara, I'm Jeff. Nice to meet you. Grandma Fran wanted you on. You're on." I said, "That's so cool." He says, "Well, what do you want? What can I do?" I said, "Can I be a regular?" And he's like, "What [00:23:30] does that mean?" I said, "Once a month." He said, "Okay. You're on once a month." So, the next month I came. Jeff came up, he said, "Barbara, how are you doing?" I said, "Great." And he said, "Now what do you want?" I said, "Can I be the beauty editor of the Today Show?" Because I saw there was financial editors, food editors. And he looked and he says, "We've never had one. But, all right. You're the beauty editor." He never came the third month. I forgot to ask the guy for money. So, I never got paid, but I was on the Today show for 14 years.

David Segal (00:23:56):
Wow!

Bobbi Brown (00:23:56):
Once a month.

David Segal (00:23:58):
For 14 years. All because of Grandma Zucker?

Bobbi Brown (00:23:59):
All [00:24:00] because of Grandma Fran. Never once mentioned my brand. I was the teacher. But fortuitously, if that's the right word, all my products, I always named with what they were. When I'd say, "You need a taupe eyeshadow, we had a taupe eyeshadow.

Harley Finkelstein (00:24:14):
Right-

David Segal (00:24:14):
[inaudible 00:24:15] ... in the world ... Most people, when they meet a nice bubby, and they say, "What else do you want to do?", don't think long and hard and come up-

Bobbi Brown (00:24:22):
I don't think long and hard. It was a-

David Segal (00:24:24):
You spit it out.

Bobbi Brown (00:24:25):
It came out of my mouth.

Harley Finkelstein (00:24:26):
Yeah. Although on the Today Show, one thing that's fascinating ... So, you're right, you can't talk about your brand. [00:24:30] But, you're the beauty editor. And underneath it says, "Bobbi Brown."

Bobbi Brown (00:24:34):
No. Right. It says, "Bobbi Brown."

David Segal (00:24:36):
You are the brand.

Harley Finkelstein (00:24:36):
You are the brand, which is amazing. Let's go back to Bergdorf. So, now you're in Bergdorf. You have your stall, you're selling your lipsticks at this point. How did it go? How did it go?

Bobbi Brown (00:24:47):
Well, we thought we'd sell 100 the first month. We sold 100 the first day.

Harley Finkelstein (00:24:50):
The first day?

Bobbi Brown (00:24:50):
The first day.

Harley Finkelstein (00:24:51):
So, you knew, hey. There's a there there?

Bobbi Brown (00:24:54):
Yes. Yes. But, I learned that there was ... A lot of people were buying all 10. And they were wearing suits. [00:25:00] I assumed they were competition, because no one ever saw a makeup artist-led brand back then.

David Segal (00:25:07):
Right.

Harley Finkelstein (00:25:08):
Makeup artists traditionally were selling other people's brands.

Bobbi Brown (00:25:10):
Yes.

David Segal (00:25:11):
What was that moment like for you? You think you're going to sell 100 a month. End of the first day comes?

Bobbi Brown (00:25:16):
Oh, cool. But, by the way, I also had this new baby. There was just so much going on. So, I go on to the next thing. Yeah. If I ever stop and think about all this stuff, I'm like, "Oh, my God! That's so [00:25:30] cool." But I'm like, "Next? What's next? I'm not done."

Harley Finkelstein (00:25:34):
So, what happens after that? So, now all of a sudden, you have some real social proof. There's a company here. You were supposed to sell 100 over a month, you sold it during a day.

Bobbi Brown (00:25:42):
What social proof? There was nothing social about anything.

Harley Finkelstein (00:25:44):
Well-

Bobbi Brown (00:25:45):
Personal appearances were like-

Harley Finkelstein (00:25:48):
There was a business there. People wanted to buy this stuff.

Bobbi Brown (00:25:51):
Well, I knew people liked what I had to offer.

Harley Finkelstein (00:25:52):
So, what'd you do then?

Bobbi Brown (00:25:53):
Well, people said we need more. And I'm like, "All right. How about lip pencils?" So, we brought out lip pencils.

David Segal (00:25:59):
But, wait. [00:26:00] What ultimately you're known best for is bringing natural beauty.

Bobbi Brown (00:26:06):
Right.

David Segal (00:26:07):
Had you been doing this? Because this is at a time where makeup is the complete opposite. Right? The more bold, the better.

Bobbi Brown (00:26:12):
Yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (00:26:12):
How did you land on that zigging, when everybody else was zagging?

Bobbi Brown (00:26:17):
Because authenticity, now it's a trend. I've always been authentic. So, it was simple for me, because I would teach women how to find a lipstick that matched your lip color, that looked [00:26:30] good on you. And if you were going to wear a red and orange or pink, let me show you how you could do one that's flattering and works with your skin and not fights it. Because when you walk into a room, I want to see the person, not the makeup. And that was just my aesthetic. It wasn't like, "Oh, here's a slice of the pie." I didn't know what a slice of the pie was back then. I didn't know what a white space was.

Harley Finkelstein (00:26:48):
You weren't thinking about market share?

Bobbi Brown (00:26:49):
I didn't know market share. I didn't know what marketing was. I didn't know what branding was. I didn't know what anything was. I just knew that I had something that you [00:27:00] couldn't buy. You couldn't buy it.

Harley Finkelstein (00:27:03):
And you're the only one doing it at this point.

Bobbi Brown (00:27:04):
At this point I was. Yeah. And I thought most makeup in department stores were awful. They were. They were not flattering.

Harley Finkelstein (00:27:12):
So, Bergdorf then says let's buy more? Or was it other retailers also? Right-

Bobbi Brown (00:27:15):
Yeah. And by the way, we launched on a table in the middle of the accessory department, which people think is the most brilliant strategy. They had no room for us anywhere else.

Harley Finkelstein (00:27:24):
That's the reason why I was there.

Bobbi Brown (00:27:25):
That's the only reason.

Harley Finkelstein (00:27:25):
And you were naive enough to not care about that?

Bobbi Brown (00:27:27):
And then, after we started [00:27:30] adding a few things, they said, "All right. Next season we're going to give you a counter. The only problem is we don't have room in the cosmetics floor. But, over there, if we get rid of those handbags ... " It was a handbag department. "We're going to put you there." So, we were the only makeup in this handbag department. It wasn't like, "How brilliant is this brand?" It's like, "Oh, wow! We got a counter." We didn't care.

Harley Finkelstein (00:27:54):
And you had no competition around you?

Bobbi Brown (00:27:55):
No. Right. But, we didn't realize. And so all of these women [00:28:00] were coming into the stores. And by the way, I was already a known makeup artist working with, not just Glamour Magazine, all the magazines. Vogue would call me and say, "Bobbi, what's the trends for the season?" And I would just make it up. And I would just say, "Oh, it's about natural beauty. It's about a little extra blush." I just talked what I thought and felt. And people would come in and look for the makeup. And then the president of the store would come down and he would be like ... His name is Burt Tansky. [00:28:30] He's a wonderful guy. I can't believe he's 85. And lives in the same community I do in Florida now [inaudible 00:28:36] It's freaky. But, he would just come down and say, "What's going on? I can't believe this." And he would say, "You know how good your business is? Go tell your husband you can get the top of the line washer and dryer," because we were renovating a house.

Harley Finkelstein (00:28:47):
Oh, my gosh!

Bobbi Brown (00:28:48):
I'm like, "Okay."

David Segal (00:28:48):
But, you were the artist first?

Bobbi Brown (00:28:51):
What?

David Segal (00:28:51):
You led with the art.

Bobbi Brown (00:28:52):
I led with the art, but I'm also really practical, Chicago girl. So, I've always been, without realizing [00:29:00] it, a good business person, because I understand that what I'm doing has a purpose and a place. And I know how to tell people about it. And I know how to tell your wife and your mother and your aunt. And if you have a 13-year-old, I understand. And it's the same thing. There's no difference.

Harley Finkelstein (00:29:17):
How to talk to people?

Bobbi Brown (00:29:17):
Right. And so, I've always been multi-generational. And guess what?

Harley Finkelstein (00:29:21):
Multidisciplinary, I think it's called.

Bobbi Brown (00:29:23):
Yeah. Exactly.

David Segal (00:29:24):
Does that come from anywhere, or it's just innate for you?

Bobbi Brown (00:29:26):
It's innate. It's common sense. And I've always, always made makeup [00:29:30] for all skin colors. It's not like a trend or a white space. It's common sense. Why wouldn't you?

David Segal (00:29:37):
Yeah. Whereas now it's a fad there.

Harley Finkelstein (00:29:39):
So, this Big Shot thing is super fun. We're having a great time. People are loving it. It's a little expensive, just to say it. At the end of the day we aren't-

David Segal (00:29:50):
I'm glad you said it.

Harley Finkelstein (00:29:51):
We're still stingy Jews here. It's really quite expensive. And you and I are funding this whole thing ourselves.

David Segal (00:29:55):
Not cheap.

Harley Finkelstein (00:29:56):
I think at the very least, we should at least promote [00:30:00] our tea business.

David Segal (00:30:01):
You all see the production quality.

Harley Finkelstein (00:30:02):
The production quality is incredible. We have an amazing staff, tons of producers. And it's a little expensive.

David Segal (00:30:09):
So, I'm obsessed with tea. I built David's tea. I left many years ago. And Harley, actually-

Harley Finkelstein (00:30:15):
I can't believe you're doing this. This is perfect. We're doing this because we have great tea. But we also, we got to pay for Big Shot.

David Segal (00:30:21):
Perfect. So, Harley got me back into tea. I would curate these green tea collections for you, having trouble sleeping in the evenings. I'm like, "Oh. You got to drink, switch coffee. You don't need [00:30:30] 10 coffees-

Harley Finkelstein (00:30:31):
[inaudible 00:30:31] If we're going to tell the story, let's tell the story. I had been drinking so much during the pandemic. I was by myself, obviously, like the rest of us were. And I was drinking a ton of coffee and my anxiety was peaking. And actually, you had said you should switch off of coffee in the afternoon and move to really high quality green tea.

David Segal (00:30:46):
The caffeine in green tea interacts differently. You don't get the big spike and crash.

Harley Finkelstein (00:30:50):
Yeah. It's like a calm alertness almost.

David Segal (00:30:52):
A calm alertness. And green tea's amazing. Really high-quality green tea. And then-

Harley Finkelstein (00:30:56):
But frankly, like most people, I had never had high quality green tea. Most of the tea [00:31:00] that I had consumed in my life, it was like in a gift. I'd give a talk somewhere and they give me a gift box or some sort of gift package, and there'd be some random tea bags in there. But, I had never actually had really high-end green tea. So, you very kindly started curating this box of incredibly high-end, amazing green tea. And you also began to Jerry-rig these accessories for me. You'd say, "Drop it in here for three minutes and then take it out, make sure it's not steaming." And you just created this incredible tea setup for me.

(00:31:29):
In fact, you [00:31:30] know this. But, next to my home office, I now have a little tea area that you actually created for me. But, green tea in particular, and having you curate this tea for me was this incredible new element of my life, because it allowed me to stay really energized, really focused in the afternoon without having any issue with sleeping.

David Segal (00:31:47):
And that was the inspiration for Firebelly. Finally, I was like, you're like, "Let's do it. I'll be your partner." So we started Firebelly Tea. Most people want to take a tea bag and dunk it in the water. And the reality is, there's this rich experience you can get with tea where you take [00:32:00] the time to make it properly. Whether it's green tea, black tea, oolong tea, herbal teas. We're doing something special with Firebelly.

Harley Finkelstein (00:32:06):
Yeah. So, Firebelly is the highest, the best tea. And actually, you got a chance to design every single accessory yourself.

David Segal (00:32:12):
Absolutely.

Harley Finkelstein (00:32:13):
You went ahead and figured out this is the best teacup. This is the best strainer for it. This is the best whisk in terms of how to make great matcha. But, this is the best tea and the best tea products ever. And please buy our tea. We need a way to pay for more Big Shot episodes. So, we don't need your money, but [00:32:30] we would appreciate you buying some amazing green tea from firebellytea.com. It is not just a pitch. It is also the greatest tea ever. And it would make us really happy.

David Segal (00:32:40):
If you don't like it, we'll give you your money back.

Harley Finkelstein (00:32:42):
No. No. We don't have that. We're not giving the money back.

David Segal (00:32:43):
Why not?

Harley Finkelstein (00:32:43):
We're keeping your money, but-

David Segal (00:32:45):
You're going to love it.

Harley Finkelstein (00:32:45):
... you're going to love it. You're going to love it. All of a sudden, you're such a big shot, you're giving people's money back. Don't money back.

David Segal (00:32:49):
OR, you'll give it as a gift. It makes a great gift.

Harley Finkelstein (00:32:51):
It's a great gift. It's great tea. It's great accessories. You actually will really, really love it. And allow us to pay for more of these Big Shot episodes. So, [00:33:00] that's our pitch. And all of you must be laughing wherever you're sitting right now, watching this. We don't care.

David Segal (00:33:06):
We actually know tea well, though.

Harley Finkelstein (00:33:07):
We also know E-commerce well, too.

David Segal (00:33:08):
Yeah. True.

Harley Finkelstein (00:33:09):
So we know E-commerce, we know tea. Firebelly tea. Go buy some, help us pay for more Big Shot episodes. So I know our audience, I know our [inaudible 00:33:18]. They're going to say, "Yeah. [inaudible 00:33:19] We love your tea. We want to buy from you. We want to support Big Shot. Is there a coupon code?" I'm going to get my answer. Someone in my family's going to call me and be like, "I love the tea. It's really great. Can I get a discount?" [00:33:30] So, is there a code we can give them?

David Segal (00:33:31):
BIGSHOT15.

Harley Finkelstein (00:33:31):
BIGSHOT15? Okay.

David Segal (00:33:34):
BIGSHOT15.

Harley Finkelstein (00:33:34):
Use code BIGSHOT15 for 15% off our tea and tea accessories. And if you don't like the tea and you don't like the accessories, David will give you your money back. I will not. He will. That's it.

David Segal (00:33:45):
I'll give you your money back. I got you. I will.

Harley Finkelstein (00:33:46):
All right. I won't. So, now you have a real business. Things are going well for you. You spend the next few years building this. You're selling everywhere. You have this brand name. At some point, [00:34:00] Estee Lauder comes knocking.

Bobbi Brown (00:34:02):
Four-and-a-half years after-

Harley Finkelstein (00:34:03):
Four-and-a-half years later-

Bobbi Brown (00:34:04):
Four-and-a-half years after we launched, I got a call from Frederic Fakai, the hairdresser that said, "Leonard Lauder wants to meet you. And I was like, "Okay. Cool." So, Leonard called and invited me to dinner. Me and the partner at the time, we weren't getting along at all-

Harley Finkelstein (00:34:21):
And Leonard Lauder at this point is CEO or Chair of-

Bobbi Brown (00:34:23):
CEO.

Harley Finkelstein (00:34:24):
CEO of Estee Lauder? Okay.

Bobbi Brown (00:34:25):
And we went to his house.

Harley Finkelstein (00:34:27):
Where was that? In New York?

Bobbi Brown (00:34:29):
In New York, [00:34:30] right across from Central Park. Showed me all of his art, which I couldn't identify any of it.

Harley Finkelstein (00:34:37):
Yeah. It's old money stuff.

Bobbi Brown (00:34:37):
It's unbelievable. And we ate dinner on his roof and he was the most charming man. Asked so many questions and said, "You're beating us." We were the number one brand by that point at Neiman Marcus. We didn't even have a full line of makeup. We didn't have mascara or skincare, but we were the number one brand. It really was popular. [00:35:00] And he said, "I want to buy you." And I'm like, "Well, we're not really for sale." And he said, "Let me tell you why I think this would really work." He said, "Because I would give you complete autonomy." I didn't know what autonomy was. Now I know it means he would leave me alone. And he did when he was in charge. "And you could do what you love, which is being a mom, doing the creative things for the brand. And we would do all the things that are headaches."

Harley Finkelstein (00:35:27):
So, basically he'd take away the G&A functions?

Bobbi Brown (00:35:29):
Right.

David Segal (00:35:29):
And was [00:35:30] that-

Bobbi Brown (00:35:30):
What's a G&A?

Harley Finkelstein (00:35:31):
Like general administrative functions.

David Segal (00:35:33):
The overhead.

Harley Finkelstein (00:35:33):
The finance, the bookkeeping, that stuff.

Bobbi Brown (00:35:35):
Right. Right. But, our partners ... So, she would be the president, I guess. And I would do what I would do. And I don't need to spend an hour talking about the difficulties having partners, but I wanted her someone else's headache.

David Segal (00:35:53):
But, he said to you, "You can do what you love," which you said was your kids at that moment. Was there this tension in [00:36:00] the meteoric rise of your brand, which I definitely want to talk about, between your family life and your business life at this point? Was that appealing to you?

Bobbi Brown (00:36:08):
It was always my cause of anxiety. What do I do? I mean, out of all my kids, I only missed one school performance. I went to every musical performance. And my kids have no artistic talent, but I was there. I learned things that made it work. So, I would go into the principal the first day with lip gloss [00:36:30] and I ... It was a woman. And I'd say, "When are the teacher conferences? When are these things?", so I could put them on my calendar and not schedule a trip. So, I put my kids first. And then I started working from home on Mondays and Fridays so I could volunteer-

Harley Finkelstein (00:36:47):
Before that was cool.

Bobbi Brown (00:36:48):
Before it was cool. And before anyone did it. I don't know how I got away with it, but I did.

David Segal (00:36:53):
But meantime, your business is exploding. Right? There's endless fires to put out, endless inventory to manage [00:37:00] and try and keep up with the pace of sales. And there's no Zoom?

Bobbi Brown (00:37:03):
No. There's no Zoom. No. No. It was intense. It was a shit show, but it was wonderful.

Harley Finkelstein (00:37:11):
So, you're sitting on the roof of Leonard Lauder's mansion?

Bobbi Brown (00:37:14):
Looking outside at-

Harley Finkelstein (00:37:16):
[inaudible 00:37:16] Central Park.

Bobbi Brown (00:37:16):
At the Philharmonic or somebody playing, whether he-

Harley Finkelstein (00:37:19):
[inaudible 00:37:19] He probably-

Bobbi Brown (00:37:20):
[inaudible 00:37:21] Yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (00:37:21):
He probably had it staged there for you. Here's the guy who's been wealthy for multi generations, multi-billionaire, who wants to buy your company. He believes that he can [00:37:30] help you grow. He'll give you autonomy. What are you thinking sitting at this table?

Bobbi Brown (00:37:33):
Well, first of all, we had ... Dinner with brown rice, grilled chicken and steamed broccoli.

Harley Finkelstein (00:37:38):
Yeah. It sounds very boring.

Bobbi Brown (00:37:39):
He said, "I know this is what you like to eat."

Harley Finkelstein (00:37:43):
He did his research?

Bobbi Brown (00:37:43):
Yeah. And that's what I like to eat. And the most expensive wine I probably ever drank in my life. So, that was exactly-

Harley Finkelstein (00:37:51):
What you wanted?

Bobbi Brown (00:37:51):
What I wanted.

Harley Finkelstein (00:37:51):
Nice touch.

Bobbi Brown (00:37:51):
Yeah. Nice touch. So, I loved the man. He's a wonderful, wonderful man.

Harley Finkelstein (00:37:59):
How old was he at the time?

Bobbi Brown (00:38:00):
[00:38:00] I hate to say he's probably my age now. He was probably in his sixties, I guess. Yeah. So, he just turned 90s, like 91.

Harley Finkelstein (00:38:10):
And so, you leave that dinner with what?

Bobbi Brown (00:38:13):
With like, "Holy shit!" Wow!

David Segal (00:38:15):
Did he slide the paper with the number across the table?

Bobbi Brown (00:38:19):
No. No. No. No. No. Look, luckily for me, my husband. I married really smart. I never had to get involved in that stuff. It took [00:38:30] months to do this deal. I don't remember. I guess it was warm enough that we were. And when we finally sold it ... Cody's going to kill me. When we finally sold it, we were on the beach in Nantucket. And I just remember, because Steven was going in circles in the car, he was on a very long cordless making the deal. And it's the first time my second son peed without his diaper. Those are the memories I have, which is selling the company.

Harley Finkelstein (00:38:57):
And finally, Cody went to the bathroom properly. [00:39:00] Cody's now potty trained. And you're selling your company-

David Segal (00:39:02):
That's really putting your kids first. It's like, "What happened today?" "Well, he peed without a diaper. Oh. And I made [inaudible 00:39:09] .

Harley Finkelstein (00:39:08):
So eventually you-

Bobbi Brown (00:39:09):
Sorry, Code.

Harley Finkelstein (00:39:10):
But, one piece I'm missing here is what made you decide, "Okay. This makes sense to sell?"

Bobbi Brown (00:39:16):
Because I did not picture myself as Melanie Griffith in the working girl with-

Harley Finkelstein (00:39:21):
Shoulder pads.

Bobbi Brown (00:39:22):
... shoulder pads and a thing. And no. All I ever wanted in life, honestly, was to be a mom. That's all I ever wanted. [00:39:30] To be a teacher and a mom. I'm both those things, which is really cool. And somehow I have this incredible career, which is-

David Segal (00:39:37):
Well, you also-

Bobbi Brown (00:39:38):
I worked hard.

David Segal (00:39:40):
Well, you worked hard and you had this incredible passion.

Bobbi Brown (00:39:43):
Yes. And I'm really lucky, because I have an incredible marriage. Right> I'm married 35 years.

David Segal (00:39:48):
Yeah. Talk to us about that. You described the five years between starting the company and ultimately selling to Estee Lauder as sometimes a shit show. How did your marriage help you in that time? What did you do in the center of a shit show?

Bobbi Brown (00:39:59):
Well, [00:40:00] a shit show. My husband would say, "What shit show?" Like it was fine. It's a shit show, because the kids are getting colds and they're getting chicken pox and they're getting all these things-

David Segal (00:40:10):
Real life.

Bobbi Brown (00:40:11):
Oh, no. It's real life.

Harley Finkelstein (00:40:12):
We're in the middle of it now.

Bobbi Brown (00:40:13):
Right. Right. No. It's real life. And you have to get up in the morning and do what has to be done. I remember once I was flying to the UK to go on a TV show and I gave myself a day so I can catch up. No. Cody or Dylan, the oldest one, got chicken pox and a high fever. I was not going on a plane, but I couldn't cancel my trip. [00:40:30] So, I ended up going the next day, directly off the plane onto the TV set. Not easy.

Harley Finkelstein (00:40:37):
Not great.

Bobbi Brown (00:40:38):
Not great. But, you did it.

Harley Finkelstein (00:40:39):
So, then you decide, eventually the deal gets done. $75 million. You keep autonomy.

Bobbi Brown (00:40:45):
That's not the price, because there was a buyout. So, I don't even know what the price is, but there was a buyout.

Harley Finkelstein (00:40:55):
Okay. So, there was a buyout of it, but you decide to eventually-

Bobbi Brown (00:40:56):
25-year buyout.

Harley Finkelstein (00:40:56):
25-year with a non-compete?

Bobbi Brown (00:40:58):
With non-compete. Yeah.

David Segal (00:40:59):
Oh, meaning [00:41:00] that you're getting paid. You didn't get all the money upfront?

Bobbi Brown (00:41:03):
No. A percentage of international, because that we-

Harley Finkelstein (00:41:07):
That was a big part of the business.

Bobbi Brown (00:41:08):
It was a big part of it. Well, the growth was going to come from international.

Harley Finkelstein (00:41:10):
Right. And that buyout provision, was that always anticipated? Or was that something you added in at the end?

Bobbi Brown (00:41:18):
No. The buyout was always there.

Harley Finkelstein (00:41:21):
Yeah. Sorry. The international piece, I mean?

Bobbi Brown (00:41:22):
Yeah. That was part of the deal.

Harley Finkelstein (00:41:23):
Okay.

Bobbi Brown (00:41:24):
That was the deal that my husband made.

Harley Finkelstein (00:41:27):
So, Steven helped you negotiate a really good deal?

Bobbi Brown (00:41:29):
Steven negotiated [00:41:30] a really good deal, and he did a couple things in the contract. He asked me, he said, "The deal's done. We agreed to everything." And it was not like, "Okay." It takes a lot of back-and-forth, where you think it was going to fall apart. Whatever. I honestly didn't pay a lot of attention, because I was changing diapers.

David Segal (00:41:51):
So, who's running the company?

Bobbi Brown (00:41:54):
The partner. Well, there was four of us. So, it was two women and the husbands.

Harley Finkelstein (00:42:00):
[00:42:00] Yeah. Two couples?

Bobbi Brown (00:42:01):
Two couples. Two couples. And we started hiring-

Harley Finkelstein (00:42:05):
People.

Bobbi Brown (00:42:05):
People.

Harley Finkelstein (00:42:05):
Right. Right. So, eventually the deal gets done. You have this earn-out for 25 years. A 25 year non-compete.

David Segal (00:42:13):
[inaudible 00:42:15].

Bobbi Brown (00:42:15):
Well, when you're 30 ... I was 34 I think when we sold the company. And I was like-

David Segal (00:42:20):
It's like, "I'm going to be 60 years old when this-

Bobbi Brown (00:42:22):
I am not going to want to work when I'm in my sixties.

Harley Finkelstein (00:42:24):
Right.

Bobbi Brown (00:42:25):
I couldn't imagine. And when I left Estee Lauder, I was 59 and a half. [00:42:30] And I was like, "I guess I'm done. I guess I'm done." And then I was like, "What the hell am I going to do?"

Harley Finkelstein (00:42:38):
So, before we go there, so now you sell the company, what was that like having that money in your account? Forget the financial abilities, but just, how does that feel as the founder of something to have that type of wealth for the first time?

Bobbi Brown (00:42:52):
Well, I didn't really understand it. I still don't. It's just not been an easy thing for me to wrap my head around. But, [00:43:00] what we did was we went to ABC Carpets to say, "Okay. Let's celebrate." I just remember we bought a Winnie the Pooh rug, and a little wooden step stool. That's all we could find that we liked. And then on the way home, my husband said, "I've always wanted to get tickets at the Nets." And so we called up, some guy answered, Michael Bateman. He sold us a table on the floor, so that's how we celebrated.

David Segal (00:43:26):
Wow!

Harley Finkelstein (00:43:27):
You bought a carpet and went to the basketball game.

David Segal (00:43:28):
Winnie the Pooh-

Bobbi Brown (00:43:30):
[inaudible 00:43:29] [00:43:30] No. We bought season tickets on the floor. And then we said, "All right. What are we going to do for our families?" And so we decided that we're going to pay for all the kids colleges and help with Bar Mitzvahs.

David Segal (00:43:41):
Because you didn't grow up with money. This was-

Bobbi Brown (00:43:43):
We were upper middle class. My dad worked as a lawyer and he made money. So I wasn't-

Harley Finkelstein (00:43:49):
So, the extended family, though, got college paid for and Bar mitzvah help?

Bobbi Brown (00:43:52):
Yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (00:43:52):
Wow!

Bobbi Brown (00:43:53):
Yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (00:43:53):
That's amazing.

Bobbi Brown (00:43:54):
Yeah.

David Segal (00:43:55):
But, there are few people that I can say this to. But, I remember when I sold a business that my [00:44:00] name was on the front door. It's called David's Tea. And then, I then started another tea visit called Firebelly Tea. I remember having very-

Bobbi Brown (00:44:06):
Did you have a non-compete?

David Segal (00:44:07):
Not a 20 five-year one? No.

Harley Finkelstein (00:44:09):
He had a [inaudible 00:44:10] one.

David Segal (00:44:10):
But, I remember having mixed emotions about it. Yes. The money hitting the account was good. But, I actually-

Harley Finkelstein (00:44:16):
[inaudible 00:44:16] ... name's on the door. Your name's on the door.

David Segal (00:44:17):
I went through a depression around it. And even now see my kids see the sign and comment on it. What's that like for you?

Bobbi Brown (00:44:25):
You know what? When I sold the company, I was an employee. I never [00:44:30] thought I was an employee. I still thought I owned it. I went to work every day like I owned it. And Leonard supported me in everything I did. I built the first and freestanding store in Montclair, New Jersey. My husband built it. We didn't strategize it, plan it. We just built it with a roll of tape. And then I called Leonard. I said, "Can you just come out for an hour?" He came out and I said, "I didn't know how to explain it to you, so I had to show you." And he said, "Never, ever ask for permission. Just beg [00:45:00] for forgiveness." And it was our first freestanding store. And-

Harley Finkelstein (00:45:04):
Sounds like Leonard was incredibly supportive?

Bobbi Brown (00:45:05):
Leonard was so supportive. Honestly. Leonard was-

Harley Finkelstein (00:45:09):
Did he make you feel like it was still yours?

Bobbi Brown (00:45:11):
Yes! Yes. He would come into my big meetings and I'd ask him to speak, and he'd always run down. And he'd say to everyone, "You know how you could be successful here? Two words. 'Yes, Bobbi.'" He really was supportive. I literally called him on, I didn't go through the layers to find out if we could do-

Harley Finkelstein (00:45:29):
[inaudible 00:45:29] You just called him. [00:45:30] It sounds like he was incredibly founder-friendly.

Bobbi Brown (00:45:31):
He was.

Harley Finkelstein (00:45:31):
You were the founder.

Bobbi Brown (00:45:33):
He was.

Harley Finkelstein (00:45:33):
And he wanted you to be-

Bobbi Brown (00:45:34):
He was.

Harley Finkelstein (00:45:34):
... successful.

Bobbi Brown (00:45:35):
Nothing has been the same since Leonard's not-

Harley Finkelstein (00:45:37):
[inaudible 00:45:38]. So, let's talk about that. So, when did that change?

Bobbi Brown (00:45:39):
Well, it changed when Leonard was no longer the CEO. I guess he became the chairman. There was another great CEO named Fred Langhammer. Who literally would write ... I have them all, notes. "Dear Bobbi, dear Maureen, you guys killed it. Thank you so much for all your hard work. Phenomenal."

Harley Finkelstein (00:45:58):
Wow!

Bobbi Brown (00:45:58):
He left and then never.

Harley Finkelstein (00:46:00):
[inaudible 00:46:01] [00:46:00] ... been the same?

Bobbi Brown (00:46:01):
Wasn't been the same.

David Segal (00:46:02):
How did you feel that change? He went from "Yes, Bobbi-

Bobbi Brown (00:46:06):
Slowly.

David Segal (00:46:06):
Yeah.

Bobbi Brown (00:46:07):
Slowly. Like a drip. Slowly. Again, being naive, I always thought, "I could fix this. Okay. I could fix this."

David Segal (00:46:17):
What were those early signs? When did it start to-

Bobbi Brown (00:46:21):
To start falling apart?

David Segal (00:46:22):
Yeah.

Bobbi Brown (00:46:25):
So, we sold the company. I stayed 22 years. How many founders have stayed?

Harley Finkelstein (00:46:30):
[00:46:30] Very few.

Bobbi Brown (00:46:30):
Very few.

Harley Finkelstein (00:46:30):
Very few.

Bobbi Brown (00:46:31):
22 years. The last two years were bad. The five years before were tough. So, really when the last CEO came in, from another-

Harley Finkelstein (00:46:44):
Yeah.

David Segal (00:46:45):
And was it just removing your ability to operate at times-

Bobbi Brown (00:46:48):
[inaudible 00:46:48] It was slow. It was slow. And-

David Segal (00:46:51):
One little decision?

Bobbi Brown (00:46:52):
One little decision at a time when people started coming in the office, "Oh, hi. This is so-and-so, the new head of international." I'm like, "Really?"

Harley Finkelstein (00:46:58):
I didn't meet that person. Yeah.

Bobbi Brown (00:47:00):
[00:47:00] I used to meet every single person.

Harley Finkelstein (00:47:03):
Of course. Yeah. Did you feel that at some point it was just more about the business and less about-

Bobbi Brown (00:47:10):
Yeah. I would get frustrated and upset. And people around me would be frustrated and upset and we'd all, "I won't complain." And I'm like, "Guys, we're late with this thing. We got to do this." And, "Oh, my God. I had such angst and anxiety, because things were changing. And because the business was getting so big, even the products, [00:47:30] they weren't the same color. So, I would say to my team, "Guys, you have to go back in the lab and fix the colors." I was a pain in everyone's neck.

David Segal (00:47:37):
But, even though it wasn't your company anymore, you still really-

Bobbi Brown (00:47:39):
It was my company-

David Segal (00:47:39):
... you cared so much.

Bobbi Brown (00:47:40):
... with my name. I cared so much. I never thought it wasn't. And I was always doing five-year contracts. But then, I went down to three and then to two, because I wasn't sure.

David Segal (00:47:53):
Yeah.

Bobbi Brown (00:47:54):
I wasn't sure. And it took my Aunt Alice, who now [00:48:00] is 93, but at the time she was 89. And I was walking in Colorado, talking to her on the phone and telling her what a mess everything was, but how I'm going to fix it. And she said, "Could you just stop? You've been saying this for two years, you're not going to fix it. I really think it's time."

David Segal (00:48:17):
Did things change for you as you became less naive?

Bobbi Brown (00:48:21):
No. I'm sure I'm smarter. I'm a lot smarter, but [00:48:30] change when I was there? Yeah. Or just how many times can you be punched in the head? I kept going back. I kept going back for more. I'm like, "Uh-uh. I could fix this. No. I don't care that they did this. I don't care that they said this. This is what we're going to do."

Harley Finkelstein (00:48:49):
When you worked out of the office, you're 59 years old. 22 years, long time. Post-acquisition, 22 years. You walk out of the office?

Bobbi Brown (00:48:56):
My first feeling was amazing. It was like all of a sudden, [00:49:00] all the angst and stress left my body. I don't have to worry about the lighting and duty free, and the products that are this. And I don't have to worry about it anymore. This wave came over me, but then I sunk, because two things. I'm like, "My driver is not going to have a job," because I had Fred in my driveway. And, "I am going to have no makeup to give to the 1,500 girls that come to my house for Halloween every year." Those are my first two thoughts.

Harley Finkelstein (00:49:30):
[00:49:30] Wow! You're worried about the driver losing his job and you're worried about what you're to give away for Halloween?

Bobbi Brown (00:49:35):
Those were my-

Harley Finkelstein (00:49:35):
That's what you're concerned about?

Bobbi Brown (00:49:36):
Well, those were my first two thoughts.

Harley Finkelstein (00:49:38):
Incredible.

David Segal (00:49:39):
So, did you have to go buy Kit Kats and-

Bobbi Brown (00:49:41):
Well, no. My husband always gave large candy bars.

Harley Finkelstein (00:49:44):
Oh, you were the large candy-

David Segal (00:49:44):
Oh, the large candy bar family.

Bobbi Brown (00:49:49):
Oh, yeah. Yes. It would be very competitive.

Harley Finkelstein (00:49:50):
Real big shot.

Bobbi Brown (00:49:50):
Yeah. He was a real big shot.

Harley Finkelstein (00:49:50):
Yeah. The whole neighborhood knew where the large candy-

Bobbi Brown (00:49:52):
The whole neighborhood had to up their game because of me and my husband. We thank God, moved. So, we don't do that anymore.

Harley Finkelstein (00:49:57):
Yeah. Now you have new neighbors to terrorize. At [00:50:00] what point do you decide, "Hey, it's time for something new,"? I guess at that point, you still had a couple of years left in your non-compete?

Bobbi Brown (00:50:07):
Right. I had four-and-a-half years left.

Harley Finkelstein (00:50:08):
You had four-and-a-half years. What's those four-and-a-half years like? In many ways, you're not at Estee Lauder anymore, but you can't start something new. What was that like?

Bobbi Brown (00:50:17):
It was a tough time. I'm not going to lie. It was a tough time. When I first left, my entire posse that I'd hired, I didn't talk to them. They weren't allowed to reach out to me. [00:50:30] It was a tough time, and I had to go it alone. And I was mopey. I was mopey. And a friend of mine who owned Avon at the time said, "Could you please, please, please come and run Avon?" And I had a lot of meetings. I had a lot of meetings, and thank God it didn't work, because that would've been a disaster.

Harley Finkelstein (00:50:54):
Why do you think?

Bobbi Brown (00:50:55):
I think I probably could have turned it around. I think I couldn't have. At the time. [00:51:00] I thought, "Oh, I could turn this around. I got this. I'll fix the products. I'll fix this. I'll fix that." That was-

David Segal (00:51:05):
You think it was unfixable?

Bobbi Brown (00:51:07):
I think it was unfixable.Yeah

Harley Finkelstein (00:51:08):
Did you feel at that point that rather than sort of go and build or fix someone else's thing, did you have an inclination that you wanted to start something new?

Bobbi Brown (00:51:16):
Well, not in the makeup world. But, the great thing about all of a sudden being gone. I had an open calendar, which is scary to someone like me, because I was always so booked. But then I started calling [00:51:30] people. So, I called my friend Richard, who owned Lord & Taylor and Saks he said, "Oh, I'm so glad this happened. I could really use you. Why don't you come in and talk to me?" So I went in and talked to him, and he offered me the Just Bobbi shops at Lord & Taylor, to do a curated, whatever I wanted. And I got to-

Harley Finkelstein (00:51:47):
But no cosmetics?

Bobbi Brown (00:51:48):
I knew I couldn't touch beauty, but I was able to curate only Bobbi Brown products, which I did.

Harley Finkelstein (00:51:54):
Cool.

Bobbi Brown (00:51:55):
Not cool, because I wasn't using them anymore.

Harley Finkelstein (00:51:57):
Oh, you weren't using them? And they weren't really your products anymore?

Bobbi Brown (00:51:59):
They weren't [00:52:00] my products. And honestly, the second I walked away, I was like-

David Segal (00:52:04):
It didn't feel good.

Bobbi Brown (00:52:04):
It didn't feel good. I haven't used them since.

David Segal (00:52:06):
And your name's on it, though. Right? I struggled with this a lot.

Harley Finkelstein (00:52:12):
You don't drink David's Tea anymore.

David Segal (00:52:13):
I don't drink Davids Tea anymore. Well, I have a new tea company Firebelly Tea. But before, when I was in that transition, I wasn't doing what I love, which is tea. You're still looking at a product that you spent 22-plus years, 27 if you the time before?

Bobbi Brown (00:52:27):
Right? Well, it's funny. Some of the products [00:52:30] at the time were things that I didn't even get to approve, because it was such a mess at Bobbi Brown at the time that the timelines weren't right. There was open positions. It was really a tough time in this big, giant company.

David Segal (00:52:45):
So, you go home at night. You've been selling Bobbi Brown products that you no longer are associated with, but it's your name on it. And you and Steven are having dinner. How did that go?

Bobbi Brown (00:52:55):
Fine. We had a bottle of tequila the first two nights. My neighbors came over, we drank a bunch. And then [00:53:00] I just started going out and talking to people. And it was like, I felt like I was George Bush coming out of the White House being like, "Oh, my God! Grocery stores? You could scan it yourself."

Harley Finkelstein (00:53:10):
It's amazing.

Bobbi Brown (00:53:12):
No. It's honestly, I just-

David Segal (00:53:13):
It's a whole new world.

Bobbi Brown (00:53:14):
I put my hair in a ponytail. I put my sneakers on. I stopped wearing high shoes. I stopped getting all fluffy for things. I had a book to promote, my ninth book. So, I did a whole tour wearing sneakers and getting a dry bar blowout and doing my own makeup. [00:53:30] It was so invigorating. Like, I used to have someone do my makeup, because I was always so busy and I just never looked like me. It was too much makeup.

Harley Finkelstein (00:53:41):
When did it flip for you? You went from being down and mopey to being invigorated?

Bobbi Brown (00:53:46):
Well, many times during a day. It depends. Different triggers. And what really helped me, two things. I didn't go to a shrink, because it's too much emotional baggage I don't need.

Harley Finkelstein (00:53:58):
We're both married to shrinks. [00:54:00] So-

Bobbi Brown (00:54:00):
Okay. Yeah. So, I went to my chiropractor who does emotional release technique. So, little by little, I started getting rid of the angst and the anger, and it would leave. Leave. It would come back.

Harley Finkelstein (00:54:14):
The chiropractor?

Bobbi Brown (00:54:15):
He's amazing.

Harley Finkelstein (00:54:16):
Wow!

Bobbi Brown (00:54:16):
Dr. Jeff. He's amazing, because-

Harley Finkelstein (00:54:18):
The head of the department?

David Segal (00:54:18):
The best doctor ever. Best doctor.

Harley Finkelstein (00:54:19):
We always joke that Jews love to talk about how great their doctor is. I get the best doctor. He's head of the department. My doctor is the head of, the head of the department.

Bobbi Brown (00:54:28):
This guy is a single guy [00:54:30] in Montclair, New Jersey, that has helped many people. But, he really emotionally helped me with this stuff. So, I went to him. And then a friend of mine came to me, my yoga instructor turned a life coach. He said, "Can I come over and give you a session?" I'm like, "Sure." I thought it was yoga. He wanted a life coach me. I didn't know what a life coach was. But, we talked about what I was feeling and what the actions plan should be. And so, I started seeing a life coach. And he taught me so much about getting things done [00:55:00] and how to break through things and how and when to deal with my aggravation, sadness, whatever it was.

David Segal (00:55:09):
What was it? Yeah. Was it anger? Was it-

Bobbi Brown (00:55:13):
Yeah.

David Segal (00:55:13):
It was anger?

Bobbi Brown (00:55:13):
It was anger. There was a lot of anger. There was a lot of feeling not in control. There was a lot of feeling betrayed. I felt betrayed by my employees that were my friends. And [00:55:30] they were in a tough spot.

Harley Finkelstein (00:55:31):
Because they stayed.

Bobbi Brown (00:55:32):
They stayed. They needed their careers and their money.

Harley Finkelstein (00:55:35):
They had a job. Right?

Bobbi Brown (00:55:36):
They're all gone now and we've all rekindled, but it was tough for a while.

Harley Finkelstein (00:55:39):
Yeah. So, your employees stayed. Your employer betrayed you all, didn't give you ... And you're sandwiched in the middle of it. What point did you-

Bobbi Brown (00:55:46):
[inaudible 00:55:47] And I felt like a loser. Right? You feel like a loser.

Harley Finkelstein (00:55:48):
Sorry. Wait a second. That I'm surprised to hear. You felt like a loser?

Bobbi Brown (00:55:52):
Yeah. Because it didn't work. Because it didn't work.

Harley Finkelstein (00:55:55):
But it did work. It actually worked incredibly well in your ... You're [00:56:00] talking about-

Bobbi Brown (00:56:01):
Leaving.

Harley Finkelstein (00:56:01):
You're talking about-

Bobbi Brown (00:56:01):
I'm talking about leaving.

Harley Finkelstein (00:56:03):
But, the fact that you even say 22 years is an incredible success, an incredible run.

Bobbi Brown (00:56:09):
Yes. But, it took a while to realize that. You're not in control of your emotions.

David Segal (00:56:14):
Meantime, Just Bobbi is not Bobbi Brown. Right? This is not a rocket ship?

Bobbi Brown (00:56:18):
No. No. But, when I was at Bobbi Brown, the only reason I could stay in a corporation, is because I learned how to be an intrapreneur. Right? Because I did things. I started a blog. I was [00:56:30] like, "What's a blog?" I started a blog called Everything Bobbi. My husband wanted me to start another blog called I've Had Enough, Bobbi. And then, I got offered to be the editor-in-chief of Yahoo to start a beauty magazine. I was like, "I don't know how to type, but okay."

Harley Finkelstein (00:56:46):
Cool. Try it. You were writing books. You were speaking,

Bobbi Brown (00:56:48):
Right. I don't know how to type, by the way.

Harley Finkelstein (00:56:48):
Still?

Bobbi Brown (00:56:48):
Yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (00:56:48):
You still don't know how to type?

Bobbi Brown (00:56:48):
I don't know how to type.

David Segal (00:56:51):
Most people write a book. You wrote nine,

Bobbi Brown (00:56:54):
Right. I'm working out on a 10th right now.

Harley Finkelstein (00:56:56):
Amazing. Are you going for the Guinness Book of World records of Book-

Bobbi Brown (00:56:59):
No. No. No.

Harley Finkelstein (00:57:00):
[00:57:00] Why do you like writing books?

Bobbi Brown (00:57:01):
Why do I like writing books? Because then I could be in control of them. What goes in and what-

Harley Finkelstein (00:57:05):
You can decide.

Bobbi Brown (00:57:06):
[inaudible 00:57:07] And I could decide what pictures, what things.

Harley Finkelstein (00:57:08):
That's amazing.

Bobbi Brown (00:57:09):
Yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (00:57:09):
So, let's talk about Jones Road. At what point does that start to conceptualize? And how does that all happen?

Bobbi Brown (00:57:15):
Right. Well, it wasn't a thought. When I left I didn't think I was done with makeup, with beauty. But then, I realized I miss makeup and I'm a makeup artist. I'm going to be a makeup artist again. So, I finally [00:57:30] put a portfolio together. It was a joke. But, I put portfolio and I went one day and tried to find an agent in New York.

Harley Finkelstein (00:57:37):
Oh, my gosh!

Bobbi Brown (00:57:37):
All these young kids. And they looked at me and they're like, "Oh, my God! You're Bobbi Brown." They were like ... And no one knew what to do with me. No one knew. And so I'm like, "All right. Well, that didn't work." So I went home and I said, "I'm just going to just do photo shoots." So, I-

David Segal (00:57:52):
Meaning you would do the makeup on major photo shoots? You would be the makeup artist? The actual-

Bobbi Brown (00:57:57):
Well, I was hoping, but no one was going to hire me.

Harley Finkelstein (00:57:59):
You went back to the beginning?

Bobbi Brown (00:58:00):
[00:58:00] No. I was going to do my own photo shoots, for Just Bobbi. And so I started, and I booked a model and I put together a little team. I hired an assistant out of the Apple store, because she seemed like she knew ... I needed technical help. I found my neighbor and asked her to come in and help me, and she said yes. And I had a few people, and we worked on Just Bobbi. We had the Just Bobbi shops at Lord & Taylor. We eventually brought him in-house [00:58:30] digital. We're like, "Oh. We'll just do it ourselves. It didn't work out. We'll do it ourselves." I started a wellness brand selling protein powders and de-bloats and all sorts of things. A very similar business arrangement to the guy with the makeup. Some manufacturer reached out to us and said, "I'll make this stuff, and you do everything else."

Harley Finkelstein (00:58:55):
Wow! You found your next chemist?

Bobbi Brown (00:58:57):
I found my next ... Yeah.

David Segal (00:58:59):
But wait. I [00:59:00] read that you made a necklace-

Bobbi Brown (00:59:02):
Yeah.

David Segal (00:59:02):
... with the date of when the non-competitive expires.

Bobbi Brown (00:59:04):
I did. I did.

David Segal (00:59:04):
So, are you just buying time until you can get into makeup again?

Bobbi Brown (00:59:08):
Until I could have my freedom. Until I could have my freedom. I wouldn't sign a non-disparchment, but I've never [inaudible 00:59:17] them.

David Segal (00:59:17):
Sure.

Bobbi Brown (00:59:17):
There's no reason to.

David Segal (00:59:19):
Right.

Bobbi Brown (00:59:19):
Yeah. I won't even put it in my book.

Harley Finkelstein (00:59:21):
What was the date of the-

Bobbi Brown (00:59:22):
It was October of 2020. So, October 26.

Harley Finkelstein (00:59:25):
Okay.

Bobbi Brown (00:59:27):
Yeah. So, it's a necklace. It's an [00:59:30] ampersand. It's in my purse in a jewelry case. And I wore it. And so, I was doing all these other things, but realizing how much I love makeup. I got a call to go to India and teach the first ever Indian makeup show. I went and I said, "I'm not using any Bobbi Brown," so I started calling all the other brands and buying things. And I just was like, "Oh, my God!" I hated everything. I'm like, "There's no way this is going to work."

Harley Finkelstein (00:59:56):
Were you surprised that the products in the market was so bad?

Bobbi Brown (00:59:58):
I was surprised. [01:00:00] I was surprised.

David Segal (01:00:01):
Right. This is not the beginning when you started, when you were the only one doing natural.

(01:00:03):
It was 2020. It's 2020, right. There's all this competition-

Bobbi Brown (01:00:08):
[inaudible 01:00:08] But, it's looking pasty, it's looking washed out. And it is just not sitting right on the skin, like nothing. Because it became the wild west. Everyone in their uncle started makeup companies.

Harley Finkelstein (01:00:19):
It became less about the product?

Bobbi Brown (01:00:20):
It came less about the product. And to me, I don't care what brand you have, it's the product. All the other things are so great. But if you don't have a good product-

Harley Finkelstein (01:00:28):
It doesn't matter.

Bobbi Brown (01:00:29):
You know how [01:00:30] it is. It's like whatever.

Harley Finkelstein (01:00:30):
Big time.

Bobbi Brown (01:00:31):
So, I also got hired to teach a master class. So, the first ever makeup master class, they filmed. And by that time I had gotten a chemist. I found, I think-

Harley Finkelstein (01:00:43):
Not Steve?

Bobbi Brown (01:00:44):
Not Steve. We Googled clean chemists and it really didn't exist. So we found a couple, because I didn't want to use or go with anything I did in the past. I wanted to start all over again. Press the reset button. So. We found these local chemists, and-

Harley Finkelstein (01:00:59):
In New Jersey?

Bobbi Brown (01:01:00):
[01:01:00] In New Jersey. Started, and I went through three different product development freelancers until I fell in love with this one girl who is now this acting COO of Jones Road. And we just started putting these products together. I had made a lipstick right away when I left, because I needed something to give out at Halloween. So, I made this clean lipstick that I met a chemist, or a manufacturer.

Harley Finkelstein (01:01:30):
[01:01:30] Where are you meeting these chemists?

Bobbi Brown (01:01:31):
I was at the natural food show. And it was all food. I don't know if you've ever been to those shows?

Harley Finkelstein (01:01:36):
Yeah. I have.

Bobbi Brown (01:01:37):
You get sick, because you eat all those gummies and all that healthy food. It's like they're all processed healthy foods. It's like, "Eat an apple," but anyways. And there was one little company from, I don't know, New Mexico that had these little makeup, and I went over to look. And no one knew who I was and I picked up one thing. I'm like, "Wow! This is really nice." I ended up calling and said, "Can I [01:02:00] order 2,000 of them?" And they were a dollar a piece. So, I had 2,000 of them.

Harley Finkelstein (01:02:05):
Perfect.

Bobbi Brown (01:02:05):
Yeah.

David Segal (01:02:06):
And the kids are like, "I want my large chocolate bar."

Bobbi Brown (01:02:09):
No. No. You had to make a decision at my house. If you wanted a makeup or candy.

Harley Finkelstein (01:02:13):
You can't get both?

Bobbi Brown (01:02:14):
You can't get both.

David Segal (01:02:14):
It's not trick or treat. It's makeup or large chocolate bar.

Harley Finkelstein (01:02:16):
It's like its own version of the marshmallow test, a little bit.

David Segal (01:02:19):
What did they pick, though? I'm curious.

Bobbi Brown (01:02:21):
It was mostly makeup, but sometimes you could see the ... And it was only for kids. The mothers would be like, "You're not getting candy. Get makeup."

Harley Finkelstein (01:02:29):
Well, also, [01:02:30] there's other houses that have big chocolate bars. There's only one house that has makeup. Right? It's Bobbi Brown's house. And so-

Bobbi Brown (01:02:35):
And I'm a bleeding heart, so I would give the kids chocolate when their mother turned around.

Harley Finkelstein (01:02:39):
So, this India thing and these trips you're taking eventually-

Bobbi Brown (01:02:41):
Just got me, like, "Oh, my God!"

Harley Finkelstein (01:02:42):
You're like, "I need something better."

Bobbi Brown (01:02:43):
Right. And so I started making these products and I'm like ... Am I allowed to swear here, or not?

Harley Finkelstein (01:02:47):
Of course.

Bobbi Brown (01:02:48):
These are fucking great. I couldn't believe how good they were. We put together ... And I am a very visual person that's like everyone. I drive people crazy. But, I opened up [01:03:00] an Instagram, locked Instagram, and started curating what this brand would look like. My visual was Celine Meets Supreme.

Harley Finkelstein (01:03:10):
Wow!

Bobbi Brown (01:03:11):
So, it's classy, but cool. And I wanted to show that you could wear the most beautiful clothes and hardly any makeup. And how good it is.

Harley Finkelstein (01:03:19):
I know the Celine people well, and I also know the Supreme people well. And I think they would love to know that the Venn diagram overlap of that.

Bobbi Brown (01:03:23):
Yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (01:03:24):
It was the impetus-

Bobbi Brown (01:03:25):
[inaudible 01:03:25] ... Jones Road.

Harley Finkelstein (01:03:25):
It was Jones Road.

Bobbi Brown (01:03:26):
And if you look at it, you can see it.

David Segal (01:03:28):
I read you got the name ... [01:03:30] It sounded British.

Bobbi Brown (01:03:31):
Well, I'm an Anglophile, number one. But, I wanted to launch on this date, and I was interviewing PR firm after PR firm and branding firm and all this stuff, because I thought that's what you had to do to do a-

Harley Finkelstein (01:03:45):
A launch?

Bobbi Brown (01:03:45):
A launch. A startup. And I just sat there listening to people and just thought, "You're an idiot. You're an idiot. You're an idiot." My neighbor helped me launch three weeks, before we were going to launch, I just said, "Help. [01:04:00] I need help." So, I knew I wanted to launch on that date. The non-compete was up. I had four miracle balms. I had just-a-sec shadow. I had one brown pencil and I had a black mascara. And I knew I wanted to be only, sell it online. I wanted mail order. No. I wanted it all online.

Harley Finkelstein (01:04:20):
The modern version of mail order.

Bobbi Brown (01:04:21):
Exactly.

Harley Finkelstein (01:04:21):
Which is E-commerce.

Bobbi Brown (01:04:22):
Exactly. Exactly. And at first I thought, "I'll just open it on Etsy. I'll sell it on Etsy. [01:04:30] What's the big deal?" But, we didn't have a name, and so we didn't have a logo. So, I had a friend's wife who I wanted to do it all, but my husband said, "If you don't have a logo, or if we don't have a name by Monday ... " It was Friday. We were driving to the Hamptons. And so, we're driving to the Hamptons and I'll set the scene. Steven's driving, I get bored if I'm not on my something. And I'm on Google Maps and Waze. And I looked down at Waze [01:05:00] and it says Jones Road. And I said, "Boing. Jones Road Beauty. Jones Road Makeup." And I said, "It sounds like a bespoke UK brand. And by the way, I can't use Brown. I might as well use Jones." And my husband said he liked it. I called the office. They said they liked it and it was available. There is a Jones Road law firm in Long Island.

David Segal (01:05:22):
And there's a clothing company, Jones?

Bobbi Brown (01:05:24):
Jones. Right. Just Jones. Or whatever it is. Jones something.

David Segal (01:05:28):
But, the date [01:05:30] mattered that much to you?

Bobbi Brown (01:05:32):
There was nothing going to stop me. So-

David Segal (01:05:35):
You're wearing it around your neck. Right? That day matters to you.

Bobbi Brown (01:05:38):
Yeah. No. I had my freedom back after that day.

Harley Finkelstein (01:05:41):
That's right. You need your freedom back.

Bobbi Brown (01:05:42):
Someone told me.

Harley Finkelstein (01:05:42):
Wow! What a way to put it.

Bobbi Brown (01:05:43):
Someone told me I can't do something. And I'm like, "Uh-huh." Now non-competes are illegal, especially a 25-year one. And every PR firm said, "You can't do it." It's a week before the presidential election in the middle of social unrest. [01:06:00] Me too. Black Lives Matter.

Harley Finkelstein (01:06:01):
COVID?

Bobbi Brown (01:06:02):
COVID. Pandemic. They're like, "You're crazy." I'm like, "What are we waiting for?" Then I think about now, January 6th. Okay. What was I waiting for? So, I did. We launched. We did three things. Again, it's during COVID, so everyone's got their masks on and I'm wearing shorts and filming the Today show. We did the Today show, Wall Street Journal business article, and Elvis Duran, and we are off to the races.

David Segal (01:06:28):
On that date?

Bobbi Brown (01:06:29):
On that date. No party. [01:06:30] No influencers.

David Segal (01:06:31):
Well, there was no way to do a party at that point. Right?

Bobbi Brown (01:06:33):
But no anything.

Harley Finkelstein (01:06:34):
And why no influencers?

Bobbi Brown (01:06:36):
Because I just wanted to get it out there. We sent it to editors and magazines. And then we called them FOBs, Friends of Bobbi. And we would check with everyone, "Where are you?", because no one's in their offices. And we all came in and packed boxes and mailed them out.

Harley Finkelstein (01:06:56):
What was day one like?

Bobbi Brown (01:06:58):
Well, day one was-

Harley Finkelstein (01:07:00):
[01:07:00] Was it like Bergdorf? Was it like that day one at Bergdorf?

Bobbi Brown (01:07:01):
Oh, but bigger. But, bigger. And everybody's screaming on social media. Oh my God. "Oh, my God. You're back. Oh, my God. We missed you. Oh, my God." It was so positive. But, then we're waiting when people got the product, because I didn't know if people were going to like it. It was an opposite of a Bobbi Brown product. It wasn't heavily marketed. It was certainly not over-packaged. It was-

David Segal (01:07:26):
Right. There was something around the packaging right. At the time? I remember [01:07:30] reading it wasn't what you wanted at the start?

Bobbi Brown (01:07:33):
Well, the formula of Miracle Balm, which by the way, I just found out at Liberty, we're in one retail door, and we don't want to be in retail. Liberty in the UK. They told me the number one selling product in their entire store is Jones Road Miracle Balm and Dusty Rose. Number one product. Not make-up product.

Harley Finkelstein (01:07:54):
Amazing!

Bobbi Brown (01:07:54):
The whole store.

Harley Finkelstein (01:07:56):
I'll tell you what.

David Segal (01:07:58):
Hold on. Hold on. But, this was not a fully packaged product [01:08:00] at the time. Right? Did you have an incident with the packaging?

Harley Finkelstein (01:08:04):
That was way back when.

Bobbi Brown (01:08:04):
No. That was for What The Foundation, we had an incident.

David Segal (01:08:07):
Ah. Not the Miracle Balm?

Bobbi Brown (01:08:08):
No. No. But, that was the formula, originally wasn't what I thought. Instead of throwing it in the garbage and getting pissed off at everybody, I stuck my hand in it went like this and put it on. I'm like, "Oh, my God! This is a miracle." It wasn't what I'd asked the lab to make.

Harley Finkelstein (01:08:21):
Wow! But, it was serendipitous.

Bobbi Brown (01:08:23):
Yeah.

Harley Finkelstein (01:08:24):
So, you talk about Liberty saying it was the biggest selling product. Something you may not know is that [01:08:30] Black Friday. Cyber Monday is our biggest selling a Shopify, our biggest weekend of the year. In 2023, we did about $9.3 billion in four days. These are crazy numbers. Right? I'm like you. I'm like a-

Bobbi Brown (01:08:41):
Do you get a percentage?

Harley Finkelstein (01:08:42):
Yeah. A little. As you know, small percentage. The number one selling product on Black Friday on Shopify in 2023 was Miracle Balm. We have 300 million skews across all the stores.

Bobbi Brown (01:08:54):
Can you write all that down?

Harley Finkelstein (01:08:54):
And the number one selling product on Black Friday, 2023, on Shopify was your Miracle [01:09:00] Bomb. It's an unbelievable thing.

Bobbi Brown (01:09:02):
It's unbelievable. And if you hear how much we sold Memorial Day weekend-

Harley Finkelstein (01:09:05):
It's even crazier.

Bobbi Brown (01:09:06):
It's crazier. And me, I'm like, "What are we going to do next year?"

Harley Finkelstein (01:09:10):
Yeah. You're sitting on [foreign language 01:09:13], as they say, which is, we all want to do more-

Bobbi Brown (01:09:17):
Because I also know this can't go on. Success gets diluted at some point. Just other things come in. Oh, I've seen all the funny companies that are bringing in their own-

Harley Finkelstein (01:09:29):
Miracle Balm?

Bobbi Brown (01:09:29):
Miracle [01:09:30] Balm.

Harley Finkelstein (01:09:30):
One of the things I saw that I really loved was, there was someone on TikTok, for example, who criticized one of your Jones Road's products. And the obvious response to that would be to go ahead and debate them and stuff. And you ... I watched this video, it's an amazing video. You so eloquently, so perfectly, just responded with a video and said, "You're putting it on wrong."

David Segal (01:09:50):
Yeah. Tell us that story. So you're in the room with some publicist-

Bobbi Brown (01:09:53):
Well, we launched What The Foundation. And it's a very different product. It's [01:10:00] the opposite of a foundation, but I call it a foundation, because all a woman needs to not look made up. It is this crazy, crazy, special product. And we launched it and it was exhausting. We actually pulled it, because it wasn't right and had to repackage it, something. So, it was like two months that we're waiting to do it. We finally launched it, and I did Instagram, whatever we did, press in the morning of. And I remember I had to be in the city [01:10:30] for something, so I went and spoke at something in the city. And on the way home, I called and Cody said, "Mom. Bad news." I said, "What?" "There is an influencer on TikTok who's got 10 million followers, who trashed What The Foundation." And I'm like, "Send it to me."

(01:10:45):
And I saw this girl, Meredith, literally take it and put two handfuls and went like this on her face and said, "This is awful." And [01:11:00] all the comments, "That looks disgusting. It looks awful." They didn't like it either. So, Cody said, "Come in and let's make it an educational piece." So, I filmed about eight or 10 educational [inaudible 01:11:15]. I said, "Guys. If you this, do this. You only need this." I did this whole thing and I was giddy. And at the end, Cody said, "All right. We're done. Fine." And I said, "One more, please." And I said, "All right. Turn the camera on." And I said, "As a makeup artist, [01:11:30] I always love trying new things. So, I'm going to try this. I saw it on TikTok," and I went like this, and I put it on-

Harley Finkelstein (01:11:37):
Exactly like Meredith did it?

Bobbi Brown (01:11:38):
And I just started cracking up. That was it and I stopped. I went away, and I called my youngest son. I told Duke, and he says, "Mom, do not go up against an influencer. You're going to lose." And so, I called Cody. I said, "Cody." I couldn't tell him Duke said, but I said, "Cody." He said, "Mom, too late. The train has left the station." It went, I'm not even going to [01:12:00] say viral, uber viral. It was such a huge moment. And all of a sudden there's articles and things saying, "Bobbi Brown clapped back." I didn't know what a clap back. Clap back was.

Harley Finkelstein (01:12:12):
You responded. You-

Bobbi Brown (01:12:12):
But, I clapped back. And then, there was all these articles about how influencers are ruining people's launch. I felt like Tootsie on-

Harley Finkelstein (01:12:21):
By the way, that was another example of naivete. Right? You didn't know. You weren't supposed to clap back. You just did the right thing.

Bobbi Brown (01:12:26):
Right. I just did it.

Harley Finkelstein (01:12:26):
And it worked out right. It felt right.

Bobbi Brown (01:12:27):
And it felt right. It worked. And that was a couple [01:12:30] years ago and it quadrupled our sales. But, you're not going to believe this. So, two weekends ago, we were in London and I was at a friend's restaurant. And my friend said, "I sat you across ... " It's a small restaurant. "I sat you across the room, because there's another woman in beauty at the other one." It was Meredith.

Harley Finkelstein (01:12:45):
Wow!

Bobbi Brown (01:12:46):
So, I said to my friend, I said, "I got to meet her." So, I went over to her and I said, "It's so nice to meet you." I said, "Congratulations on your success." She's starting to do Gucci shows. She's a beautiful girl. [01:13:00] And she was a nervous wreck. She could not have been nicer. And we didn't talk about the incident.

Harley Finkelstein (01:13:06):
And now you guys are friends?

Bobbi Brown (01:13:06):
And now we're friends.

Harley Finkelstein (01:13:07):
That's amazing.

Bobbi Brown (01:13:08):
I couldn't believe we were sitting in the same ... And so I said, "Can we take a picture?", and I posted it.

Harley Finkelstein (01:13:11):
That's amazing.

David Segal (01:13:12):
That's awesome.

Bobbi Brown (01:13:12):
[inaudible 01:13:12] I was like, "Shut up."

Harley Finkelstein (01:13:14):
Can I ask a question? I'm not sure. It's a bit of a personal question, but I have to ask it. Would you ever sell Jones Road?

Bobbi Brown (01:13:23):
To you? Maybe. I never thought about it. I never thought about it.

Harley Finkelstein (01:13:27):
Would you sell Jones Road? If someone came, [01:13:30] not an Estee Lauder per se, but someone came and offered you a ton of money for it.

Bobbi Brown (01:13:34):
Well, what's a ton of money?

Harley Finkelstein (01:13:35):
Okay. So, it matters?

Bobbi Brown (01:13:37):
Sure, it matters. And it also matters who it is, because I don't want to just walk away from it. I love what I'm doing. That's my biggest worry. I do hip hop now, because I started to think, what do I like to do? I love to dance. And there's only so many weddings and Bar Mitzvahs. So, I do hip hop a couple times a week.

David Segal (01:13:59):
But, what's the [01:14:00] biggest worry?

Bobbi Brown (01:14:01):
What's the biggest worry?

David Segal (01:14:01):
You said, "That's my biggest worry."

Bobbi Brown (01:14:02):
Is what am I going to do that I'm going to love to do? I don't like playing golf, tennis, gardening, plays, lunch. I just like working. I like creating. I like working with people. I like young people. I like things that either infuse me or I like to infuse other people.

David Segal (01:14:22):
So, the worry is that you won't be able to do that?

Bobbi Brown (01:14:24):
And I don't want to be one of those founder people that invests in other people's company, because I'm not going to like anything they're [01:14:30] doing.

David Segal (01:14:30):
Yeah. You want to be an operator?

Bobbi Brown (01:14:30):
Right.

David Segal (01:14:30):
For sure.

Bobbi Brown (01:14:31):
I can't even be on a board, because I don't want to sit there listening to people talk.

Harley Finkelstein (01:14:36):
Totally agree. We talk about all the time we're not good board members, because we want to ...

David Segal (01:14:40):
Noses in, fingers out.

Harley Finkelstein (01:14:41):
Noses in, fingers out, is not our style. I want to ask you a little bit about Cody, because Cody's your partner in Jones Road. He's your son. I've got a chance to know Cody. He's an incredible entrepreneur. He's the one that introduced us, we're very fortunate.

Bobbi Brown (01:14:53):
He blows me away. I sit there listening to him. He blows me away by what he knows and [01:15:00] how ... Not just what he knows about what he does, because a whole nother story, but even how he's building a team and how he's teaching me to think about things. It's crazy that he's my second son. What number are you two?

Harley Finkelstein (01:15:18):
Two.

Bobbi Brown (01:15:19):
You're two. Okay.

David Segal (01:15:19):
I'm two of three, also.

Bobbi Brown (01:15:19):
Of three boys?

David Segal (01:15:21):
Of three boys.

Bobbi Brown (01:15:22):
Okay. So there's one, there's two and there's three. And it's all according to plan. And Cody was two. [01:15:30] He is two.

Harley Finkelstein (01:15:31):
And how's it working with your son?

Bobbi Brown (01:15:32):
You know what? In the beginning it was rough and he would tell you the same thing.

Harley Finkelstein (01:15:37):
What was hard?

Bobbi Brown (01:15:37):
Oh, every Saturday would quit. I'd be walking in the park and he'd be calling. And he's like, "I quit. I can't do this." I'm like, "Cody, you can't quit." And then I realized, "I need to change. And I need to change how I talk to you, how I respond to what you're saying. And I need you to change, so you [01:16:00] could listen to me, even if you don't agree with me." And I realized it's my delivery. Right? I've tried teaching a mutual friend of ours. It's my delivery that wasn't working. So, at 67 years old, in all my years of experience, I'm learning some invaluable stuff.

David Segal (01:16:20):
Wow! You said something earlier about success inevitably getting diluted.

Bobbi Brown (01:16:26):
Yes. Well, there's no "repeat" [01:16:30] button. It could be the most popular thing in the world, but maybe there's going to be another something else, either from Jones Road, or from someone else that becomes popular. It's going to dilute ... We started with four colors. We have now 13, which I hate on even numbers. But, a lot that go in and out or in the hopper. We're trying to figure out how we keep that baby fresh and alive. But-

Harley Finkelstein (01:16:57):
What are the new learnings that come with that?

Bobbi Brown (01:17:00):
[01:17:00] What are the new learnings? You can't bring every single thing in. You can't give everyone what they want. And people complained. We had our biggest day ever, our second biggest day ever, and people complained they couldn't pick their own colors. Like, "Ladies stop. Just stop." Yeah.

David Segal (01:17:20):
That ability to also, that feels like, that type of mindfulness, "Ladies just stop," comes also from experience?

Bobbi Brown (01:17:28):
It's experience. And my head [01:17:30] of brand is Cody's wife Payal, who's doing a phenomenal job and she cares so much. So, she started being like, "Everybody's saying this. Everybody this. Everybody this." So I'm like, "Okay." Because there's a lot of people. Right? "Okay. Okay." And so, there was this one issue with some product, and it turns out there's complaints, there's this, there's that. So, we go to whoever's in charge of regulatory and oversees all that. She said, "Yes. There's been seven. There's been seven complaints. [01:18:00] Payal?"

Harley Finkelstein (01:18:00):
Yeah. Come on.

Bobbi Brown (01:18:01):
Come on.

Harley Finkelstein (01:18:02):
Perspective.

David Segal (01:18:03):
[inaudible 01:18:03] ... perspective.

Harley Finkelstein (01:18:04):
One thing that David and I are fascinated about, the reason we started this show is, we are fascinated by entrepreneurship, builders, founders, but also the connection that Jews have to entrepreneurship. And one of the things that you've articulated throughout your story, Bobbi, is naivete, but also chutzpah. And I'm curious to you, what does chutzpah mean to you? Because it's such a big part of your story. But, what does it mean to you?

Bobbi Brown (01:18:30):
[01:18:30] It means that I'm not afraid or intimidated to go up to anyone and say anything, whether it's my friend Barack Obama, whether it's Charlamagne tha God. I just said to him, "Let's have a book signing in the Hamptons in August." He says, "I'm down." I'm like-

Harley Finkelstein (01:18:46):
You and Charlamagne tha God, The God in the Hamptons. Perfect.

David Segal (01:18:50):
Barak, nice flex, I got to say.

Bobbi Brown (01:18:53):
You meet a lot of interesting, cool people. And it's like at this stage of my life, I don't like assholes. [01:19:00] And I don't like negativity. And I don't like backstabbing, and I don't like all that stuff. I just really good people, infused with good energy. And I don't care who you are and what you do it. I want to surround myself with people that I like.

Harley Finkelstein (01:19:15):
Yeah. When you were walking in today, David made a joke that, you, who's going to live to at least 100 are in the teenage years of the second half of your life.

Bobbi Brown (01:19:26):
Right. 100%.

Harley Finkelstein (01:19:28):
Why do you-

Bobbi Brown (01:19:28):
[inaudible 01:19:29] I say that all the time to [01:19:30] people. I'm as young as I'm going to be, and so are you guys. You're as young as you're going to be. But, I think people always say, "You found the fountain of youth." I'm like, "The only fountain of youth is your health and your attitude. That's all you got. And don't be stupid. Don't smoke." Right?

Harley Finkelstein (01:19:48):
Don't do things that are going to make it harder on yourself.

Bobbi Brown (01:19:49):
Right. I have a degree as a health coach. I went back to school, got my degree from Institute of Integrative Nutrition. And so, I've learned a lot. It's like it [01:20:00] didn't feel good to have two vodkas. So, guess what? I only have one. No. But, most people say, "No. You got to quit." I'm like, "No. I don't."

Harley Finkelstein (01:20:08):
I can moderate.

Bobbi Brown (01:20:09):
I can moderate.

David Segal (01:20:11):
Which is interesting, because nowadays, there's all these hacks. Right? You got to-

Bobbi Brown (01:20:15):
Oh, my God! The bio-hacking conference is happening right now. And I'm looking at these guys, I'm like, "You might be hacking, but you look like shit." Like, "Come on!"

Harley Finkelstein (01:20:23):
It's totally true.

Bobbi Brown (01:20:24):
Right? They don't look that good.

Harley Finkelstein (01:20:25):
Yeah.

David Segal (01:20:26):
How has your Judaism growing up and through your life played [01:20:30] into your family life and your business life?

Bobbi Brown (01:20:32):
Well, for me, it's not a religious thing. It is definitely a cultural thing. I'm so proud by being Jewish and growing up in a family that cares about other people. We were raised to care about people, not who they are or what they do, but ... I mean, not what they do, but who they are. I think of Clarence in the grocery store that my mother always bought socks for [01:21:00] and would ask him about his daughter. And that's the way I grew up. And to me, that's part of being Jewish. I didn't have a bat mitzvah, because my father said, "You can have a bat mitzvah or a Sweet 16," and I wanted a Sweet 16.

Harley Finkelstein (01:21:13):
Wow!

David Segal (01:21:14):
Not a bad choice.

Harley Finkelstein (01:21:16):
What do you think Cadillac Sam would say today? Your grandfather, your Zeyde. I don't know if you called him Zeyde. But, your grandfather-

Bobbi Brown (01:21:23):
Papa.

Harley Finkelstein (01:21:23):
Papa. What would he say today if he was sitting here right now and he heard the story of your life, your career?

Bobbi Brown (01:21:30):
[01:21:30] Honestly, I think he knows it. I've been in the White House. I was on the US Trade Commission, which was-

Harley Finkelstein (01:21:36):
Of course you were.

Bobbi Brown (01:21:37):
Of course I was. No. How bizarre. I had the Secret Service coming to my house and my neighbors and my ... So, I was on it. And I looked up and he looked at me, he saw me. And I'm like, "Papa, what am I doing here? I have no idea." Next to, who was the guy that was buried in the Meadowlands? What was his name?

Speaker 5 (01:21:56):
Jimmy Hoffa.

Bobbi Brown (01:21:57):
Yeah. So, Jimmy Hoffa Jr. was on my ... [01:22:00] And I'm like, "Papa." It's just funny.

David Segal (01:22:03):
Not bad for a Jewish girl from Chicago-

Bobbi Brown (01:22:06):
Who got D's in math.

David Segal (01:22:06):
Right.

Bobbi Brown (01:22:07):
Right? I'm still terrible with numbers. I can ask you what your evaluation is and what the, and I won't remember in 10 minutes. But I will remember every little detail about the visual thing, or the marketing, or things that are ... It's like a learning disability, but you know what? It doesn't matter, because I have my husband and I had Bobbi Brown Cosmetics. [01:22:30] I had a guy named David Nass who was the CFO, who would explain to me calmly. And if I didn't remember, he would explain it again. He didn't judge me. And if I forgot, he would tell me again.

Harley Finkelstein (01:22:42):
What about, maybe as we wrap up here. Just going back to Steve, your relationship, your marriage. Dave and I are both married, 10 years and 14 or 15 years-

David Segal (01:22:51):
It's going to be 15 this year.

Harley Finkelstein (01:22:53):
We credit a lot of our own success to our incredible wives and spouses. It sounds like even, not just for you, but [01:23:00] also your kids have great marriages as well. How do you and Steve make that work for so long?

Bobbi Brown (01:23:04):
Well, I know the secret.

Harley Finkelstein (01:23:06):
Know the secret and tell.

Bobbi Brown (01:23:07):
Just know what pisses them off and don't do it.

Harley Finkelstein (01:23:11):
It's as simple as that? Don't piss them off and just avoid those things?

Bobbi Brown (01:23:14):
You know what? Yeah. And so, many things are not worth it. They're just not worth it. I'm like, "I'm sorry." He taught me early on when we would've fights, "I'm sorry, I upset you." "Yeah. I'm really sorry I upset you." Not because I was wrong, [01:23:30] because I upset you and it's not fun.

David Segal (01:23:35):
It's not your intention?

Bobbi Brown (01:23:35):
Yeah. Well, it wasn't my intention, and I'm sorry you're upset. I don't think I actually upset you, but I'm sorry you're upset. And it's the same thing to me. And we do this a lot. Truce. We do this a lot.

Harley Finkelstein (01:23:47):
Fist bumps and say, "Okay. Let's tone it down,"?

Bobbi Brown (01:23:49):
Yeah.

David Segal (01:23:49):
I know, though, when "I'm sorry you're upset," that can sometimes trigger defensiveness.

Bobbi Brown (01:23:55):
No. It's more, "I'm sorry I upset you."

David Segal (01:24:00):
[01:24:00] Right.

Bobbi Brown (01:24:02):
I'm sorry I upset you.

Harley Finkelstein (01:24:02):
Yeah. "It's my problem, not your problem."

Bobbi Brown (01:24:02):
Right. I'm sorry. And really, "I'm sorry I upset you, because you wouldn't be such a jerk if I didn't upset you." Yeah.

David Segal (01:24:08):
You leave that part out, though?

Bobbi Brown (01:24:11):
I leave that part out. And he doesn't listen to my thing, so it's okay. I think he listened to how I built this once. So, maybe he'll listen to this.

David Segal (01:24:16):
That's good.

Bobbi Brown (01:24:16):
But he'll never make it to the end.

Harley Finkelstein (01:24:18):
That's good. Well, we can give a shortened version of it. Thank you for this. Thank you for your time today.

Bobbi Brown (01:24:22):
No. My pleasure.

Harley Finkelstein (01:24:23):
I hope you know that there are countless entrepreneurs that, Dave and I are ourselves ... We [01:24:30] stand on the shoulders of giants like you. And we've tried to build our careers emulating your success, mostly because ... The money is one thing, but also you've done it with humility and great respect. And you've brought people along with you on the way, whether it's Cody or it's the people that work around you day to day. You've created a community out of business and it's wonderful.

(01:24:51):
And you're a major inspiration to all of us. Thank you so much for coming here.

Bobbi Brown (01:24:54):
Ah. Thank you, guys. And I love meeting people like you guys. It infuses me with energy.

David Segal (01:24:59):
Cool.

Bobbi Brown (01:24:59):
Corporate [01:25:00] guys never infuse me with energy.

David Segal (01:25:01):
Yeah. Well, we're not corporate guys.

MUSIC (01:25:04):
Started from the bottom, now the whole team here.

(01:25:06):
Started from the bottom, now we're here.